Wolves as executioners , what's the problem ?

[althathir]

The problem with the Wolves as executioners is that the role is tied into being marines +1. Either they're the most loyalest marines ever, or they have skills that allow them to take down Astartes without facing ruinous losses. On top of that, there doesn't seem to be any downside to what they do. If they have wiped out a Legion in the past, you'd think there'd be a bit more animosity between them and their brothers. If they're so obedient, how come they also get to be the wild rebels in both 30k and 40k (yes, the Emperor vs the High Lords, but still, there should be something).

Don't you think part of the reason why they're a small legion is because they took ruinous losses? Its more of a mindset, than anything and once the big E is gone, then they start thinking for themselves.

Most other assumed Legion roles or traits either have an in fluff drawback (like the flesh change), or one that you could handwave into existance (the Ultramarines being by the book to the point where they become predictable). The Wolves just don't have any of that.

The curse of the wulfen, they fear that as much sons fear the flesh change.

The rune priests using the power of Fenris is just painfully stupid. I mean if they were at least ON Fenris, then I could see them buying it, but when you're thousands of light years away on Planet Whatever it's really just willfull blindness. Plus, the Emperor mentioned how dangerous it was to use the warp, you'd think he'd really speak up about the dangers of using the warp when you don't even think you're using the warp.

Its the same as believing that a wolf charm is gonna save you and it working, yes they're in denial but thats coming from our POV (and probably the other legions as well). Also I wonder if the wolves were allowed to use their psychic powers IMO (either when horus changed their orders or possibly the big e), cause they don't worry about using them in front of the sisters & and the custodes.

Which is my point. The Sons can perform feats in combat that the Wolves are not capable of, ergo they are better in combat. I've not said they have the moral high ground, I've not denied that some of them slipped up (though Tzeentch played a role in that) and nor have I said that the Wolves aren't vicious bastards - but they are not vicious bastards able to throw around other men like ragdolls with their mind!

Besides, it's hardly the Sons alone with genetic problems is it? Evidently they weren't the only ones with control issues.

I think stonerhino's point is more that the TS aren't really capable of these powers either & thats why the flesh change starts nailing them. All the characters being described doing the OTT stuff are captains and most blow up.

ATS does not and besides - this is a guy with red skin and hair which glows when he's using psychic energies and can manipulate fire. A 'Being of Fire' could potentially describe him most of the time.

ATS also has magus giving his book away because he doesn't expect to beat Russ.

I don't believe I did give them credit, especially considering how I pointed out they were pretty useless against T'kar, but I'll retract it if I did so.

Really, though, if the Wolves were equal fighters don't you think they'd have done a much better job? I mean, the Wolves are a larger legion to start with, they have Russ, they have the Emperor's own bodyguards and Valdor with them, the Sisters of Silence and an actual fleet. On the other side, we have Magnus who's decided not to actually take part apart from effectively taking out his own fleet, clouding the early warning system and thus taking out the orbital defences and killing off a bunch of his own Terminators. There's the Spireguard, which were always going to be a bit useless considering the nature of the fight. And we have the Thousand Sons, the smallest legion, who get dicked over by Tzeentch later in the fight. How was this not a walk-over for such an incredibly elite force with actual preparation and the advantage of numbers?

Why publish a book about a walk-over battle? I don't the wolves are supposed to be clearly superior to the sons though i'm sure they thought they were. The wolves have numbers but the Sons make a fight of it by using powers beyond thier control (which they can't sustain)

[daveNYC]

They're the emperor's dogs in human form with power armor, a well trained dog is pretty much the loyalest thing ever. As for the downside? How about being played by Horus and inadvertantly leading to the outcome of the Heresy, that's a pretty big failing.



Not if those legions were widely recognised as having it coming. What ever they did must have been pretty horrible for them to be stricken from the record when even the traitor legions weren't.



Not everyone knows how to train or handle dogs. Some people (using the term generously) like cats



They're dogs in power armour. Pretty easy to see how that works out, both good and bad, especially when their owner has been taking a millenia long nap.



As WFB taught us, when it comes to manipulating the warp blind faith is not only capable of great feats but is also generally safer and more stable than knowledge and awareness.

There's not a lot of shame in having been played by Tzeentzch and Horus though. Not a badge of honor, but by the end of PB you get a pretty clear picture of just how far back the plan went. Russ could have done somethings differently, but he was dealing with a decades, if not centuries long plan to sow distrust between the two legions, not to mention the direct influence of the Warmaster, who at that point was still considered to be speaking for the Emperor. Plus I'd be more willing to consider the manipulation of the Wolves if the Wolves actually gave any indication that they knew that they had been manipulated. By the end of PB the skjald (however it's spelled) would have had some pretty cromulent information regarding what had taken place, but there's no sign that he had communicated it to anyone. Did the Wolves not ask? Did Russ not care? If nothing else, you'd think that once Horus showed his true colors, Russ would have to reconsider his actions on Prospero and the role that Horus' advice or orders had played in it, but so far that hasn't been covered.

What exactly do you consider the downside to being dogs in power armor? It's not like this has been used in the fluff to give their legion any sort of character flaw or weakness. The worst thing the fluff has about the Wolves is that they can turn into Wulfen, or that they lose control of their inner animal (for want of a better term); and in both those cases, the writers have managed to twist them so that they aren't even that horrible. It's like the writers looked at the Black Rage and Red Thirst and decided to implement something similar for the Wolves, but without all the tragic inevitability and Chapter destroying nature.

Sure, we're all assuming that whatever the two missing legions did was the worst thing ever, but there's no actual evidence of that. Remember, this is an Emperor that has set out to build a galactic empire that is based on the elimination of all sentient non-human life. Given that the Emperor is willing to put up with the quirks of certain legions (Night Lords, I'm looking at you), there's no reason why the sins of the other two primarchs couldn't have been anything more threatening than wanting to coexist with some of the saner xenos races. And even granting that the two primarchs did something terrible, the Wolves, if used to eliminate one or both of the missing legions, would still have the stigma of being the first Space Marines to fire on their brothers. The primarchs are brothers, their marines are all cousins to each other, they're family, they're blood. The Wolves would be forever marked as the legion that first killed family. That's something that should color every interaction the other legions have with the Wolves, and I don't mean vague comments about how tough and ruthless they are, but there is zero evidence of that in the fluff.

There shouldn't be a way for Marines to draw on the warp that is just as powerful but twice as safe. If the Wolves are able to use their voodoo concepts and bone trinkets to use warp based powers in a safer way than other legions, then there should be some serious limitations on what they are capable of. If there isn't, you're right smack back in Wolves are marines +1 territory.

[Scammel]

I think stonerhino's point is more that the TS aren't really capable of these powers either

The Sons use plenty of powers without going all gribbly. The Predator-tossing stuff might lead to premature tentacles, but I doubt the Sons would have been called to heel if they couldn't do more than inflict bad headaches. In AoD an unarmed, half-naked squad leader even temporarily holds his ground in a fistfight against Kharn without issue other than his power-armoured madman of an opponent.

There's not a lot of shame in having been played by Tzeentzch and Horus though.

Certainly, but there were a couple of common-sense mistakes - simply having a direct confrontation with Magnus might have led to fisticuffs but could have eked out the truth of what actually transpired on Nikea. Equally, you'd have thought Russ might use a more reliable way of contacting Magnus prior to Prospero.

[Stonerhino]

ATS does not and besides - this is a guy with red skin and hair which glows when he's using psychic energies and can manipulate fire. A 'Being of Fire' could potentially describe him most of the time.

Ahriman looked up in shock to see a flaming giant desending from the highest reaches of the Pyramid of Photep.
...
Magnus the Red was a glorious sight, his golden armour and wild hair ablaze with aetheric energy.
...
His flesh burned with the touch of immense power, greater then anything it had ever contained before.

Just because ATS doesn't say "Being of fire" does not mean it doesn't say it in other words.

The Sons use plenty of powers without going all gribbly.

If you got the impression that I think the Thousands Sons are somehow subpar marines. I apologise.

The Thousand Sons fight like modern Grey Knights. It makes them murderously effective. It's what enables them to withstand the Space Wolves' attack as well as they do. The problem however is that the rank and file Thousand Son was not a match for the rank and file Space Wolf. As I qouted earlier, Phael Toron knew that the Thousand Sons stood no chance against the Space Wolves using "Conventual means".

I know I'm quoting to much but Graham McNiell did such an amazing job of capturing the little things.

"We can't hold them like this," said Tulekh. "we need to use our power!"

"Not yet" said Phael Toron. "They are weapons of last resort."

"This is the last resort!" urged Tulekh. "What else is there?"

Phael Toron, knew the man was right, but still he hesitated. [snip]. But as Tulekh said... What else is there?

****

How was this not a walk-over for such an incredibly elite force with actual preparation and the advantage of numbers?

I think you might be down playing the signifigance of how short the fighting was and the damaged caused.

We have two armies capable of ending Civilizations, clash. And it is desided in a single day of fighting. Using the unadjusted Legion numbers we have the Thousand Sons going from around 10,000-ish to 1,500 before the finalk battle. That's 85%-ish casualties, hardly something to be proud of. There is also the loss of the Warlord Titan Canis Vertex and the extintion of the Spire Guard to consider.

Reguardless of how you look at the fighting. You cannot argue that as a "Legion" the Thousand Sons were destroyed in a single day. A legion that (Not my Catch):

In "Deliverance Lost" when Corax arrives and is discussing the Loyal Primarch with Dorn and Malcador, he seems to dismiss the threat to Terra almost out of hand if Magnus and the Thousand Sons are manning the walls and quickly swings to despondent when he learns the Space Wolves have been sent to destroy them. Corax's assumptions and reactions support both the idea that the Wolves were very, very good at killing Astartes and the idea that losing the Thousand Sons in any capacity is a grievous blow to the Loyalists, even more than the loss or turning of almost any other Legion.

Sure the Space Wolves suffered heavy losses. But even after the fighting they remained a threat to the Heresy.

Had Magnus chose to fight. The battle would have gone worse for the Space Wolves. But would have ended the same for the Thousand Sons. The difference being that the Space Wolves would no longer have the strength to threaten the Heresy. Magnus, believes the same and that's why he chooses "Destruction" rather then pull Russ and the Wolves down with him down with him.

[Inquisitor Engel]

I know I'm quoting to much but Graham McNiell did such an amazing job of capturing the little things.

I think there you have it. It's a shame Abnett... Did not.

[Polaria]

I think there you have it. It's a shame Abnett... Did not.

Thanks to Black Library we actual have two versions of the Prospero to consider. Thanks to Graham McNeill we actually have at least one worth reading

[Scammel]

If you got the impression that I think the Thousands Sons are somehow subpar marines. I apologise.

The Thousand Sons fight like modern Grey Knights. It makes them murderously effective. It's what enables them to withstand the Space Wolves' attack as well as they do. The problem however is that the rank and file Thousand Son was not a match for the rank and file Space Wolf. As I qouted earlier, Phael Toron knew that the Thousand Sons stood no chance against the Space Wolves using "Conventual means".

As this was my original point and the one I thought you were trying to take issue with, I think it best if we leave our quote-wars at that. I'd go so far as to say most legions would have big issues against the Wolves conventionally, it's just that the Sons are far from conventional (ATS is very unclear about just who in the legion can use powers).

One last little point though:

Just because ATS doesn't say "Being of fire" does not mean it doesn't say it in other words.

Again, Magnus does lots of 'firey' things throughout the book, inclduing at Nikea when he melts the obsidian railing.

[stormblade]

Thanks to Black Library we actual have two versions of the Prospero to consider. Thanks to Graham McNeill we actually have at least one worth reading

Well, the other one should be titled "Religion and costumes of Fenris and political climate concerning scientific institutions of the early Imperium", but it's still the better of the two.

[daveNYC]

If you got the impression that I think the Thousands Sons are somehow subpar marines. I apologise.

The Thousand Sons fight like modern Grey Knights. It makes them murderously effective. It's what enables them to withstand the Space Wolves' attack as well as they do. The problem however is that the rank and file Thousand Son was not a match for the rank and file Space Wolf.

Unless you mean that numericaly speaking the Son's weren't able to hold out against the larger force of Wolves isn't that exactly what you're saying in the last quoted sentence?

[Stonerhino]

One last little point though:

Again, Magnus does lots of 'firey' things throughout the book, inclduing at Nikea when he melts the obsidian railing.

While I do agree that Magnus does do a lot of "Firey things". At that point though you have Ahriman shocked by it and from his point of view containing more "Power then he ever had before". Also none of those are not to the same degree as when he goes out to fight Russ.

Look at when he kills the titan. His arms are bathed in fire and the after that he is basically out of commission. Where as on Prospero he is completey bathed in fire, splits the sky open, kills hundreds of Space Wolves and still has the strength to bust up Russ up pretty bad. There is clearly a boost in power from his other "Firey things" and what he does on Prospero.

Unless you mean that numericaly speaking the Son's weren't able to hold out against the larger force of Wolves isn't that exactly what you're saying in the last quoted sentence?

We all know that the Space Wolves had a numerical advantage. But find a single piece of fluff that credits the victory only to their numbers. It's the same as saying that the Sisters of Silence is the reason the Space Wolves won. Sure they played their parts, just as the Canis Vertex (Warlord titan) played it's part in the Thousand Son's favor.

Polaria, has brought up the best argument against the Space Wolves being "Executioners". But that argument is only valid because of slip up in the timeline. One that can still be explained away. But a slip up that throws the entire start/setup of the HH into a strang place.

[Scammel]

But that argument is only valid because of slip up in the timeline. One that can still be explained away. But a slip up that throws the entire start/setup of the HH into a strang place.

We're talking about TOD, right? It's odd, but the slight discrepancy doesn't really change much, just that the Emperor saw Magnus as such an issue he decided to send the Wolves after him and not Horus.

[stormblade]

While I do agree that Magnus does do a lot of "Firey things". At that point though you have Ahriman shocked by it and from his point of view containing more "Power then he ever had before".

Ahriman is shocked by stuff during the whole book.

[Gazgull44]

I think that we are all giving the black library authors far too much credit. The two novels are great, but are geared towards shoehorning in to the background the fact that the wolves ARE the executioners of the emperor, and to be more specific, the executioners of other legions. The authors are not throwing us a curveball here. They are telling us outright because that is what they have decided the space wolves are going to be. When Russ states it himself, it is not from his own perspective, but the black library telling us how it is.

[Stonerhino]

Ya, TOD saying that Isstvan happened before Prospero.

The problem is that it calls into question as "Why not send the Wolves to Istvaan?" among others. It also does not match events from other HH books. Like Horus saying "The Wolves are occupied" and Ahriman "Seeing Horus telling Russ to destroy Magnus" among others.

In Deliverance Lost Dorn all but ordered Corax to bring his all but destroyed Legion to defend Terra. But why would he not order/ask Russ to return to Terra after Prospero as a precaution. If Dorn knew about Istvaan before Russ left.

Malcador states that he had word of magnus escaping (in Deliverance Lost). I can see Malcador not telling Russ. Russ' tendancy to do something headstrong "stupid". But Dorn would have wanted him close, he was taking every precaution.

[Scammel]

The problem is that it calls into question as "Why not send the Wolves to Istvaan?" among others.

I'll hazard a guess - though the situation is dire on Istvaan, there's no reason to suspect that it's truly more than a bog-standard rebellion and it's been pointed out that Horus needed to keep the Imperium on the back foot because otherwise he'd have been beaten pretty easily, so the Emp could be confident of victory in the long term against a mundane foe.

With Magnus however, it's very plausible that the Emp thought he was the undisputed scion of Chaos, a completely separate issue to Horus and chums. For someone like the Emperor, the stench of Chaos must be really quite evident on Magnus and don't forget the incident on Nikea which leads everyone to beleive Magnus is actively working against the other legions. The destruction of Terra's astropathic choir is the last bit of evidence anyone needs that Magnus is Chaos' pawn, thus resulting in the disaptch of the Wolves, Custodes and Sisters - Horus is a threat, but there's no telling what someone like Magnus could do with the backing of all the gods. Even Lorgar points out that Magnus seemed like an obvious choice for the gods to favour.

[underscore]

Well they did send a whole 7 legions up against 2 on Istvaan, only sending the Wolves and 'others' to Prospero. Which, mathematically speaking, would make the Wolves about 'Space Marine x 2.5'.

Edit: I forgot about the World Eaters and Death Guard being there as well. Which means it was 7 Vs 4. So I guess the Wolves are more or less normal Marines...

[Stonerhino]

@ Scammel: The problem I have with that and the post TOD timeline is that Magnus' transgression would not have happened at the time the Istvaan V forces were being mobilized. So you have the Space Wolves more or less assembled or in engagements that they can pull out of and yet not included.

Stupid me got the Audiobook (to listen to it at work) but in Deliverance Lost there is an exchange where the "Bad" Legions are discussed. It is said that the Emperor could have used his "Final sanction". IIrc it's an exchange between the Imperial Fist captain and Captain Bram on the Imperial Fist Strike Cruiser. If I am remembering it correctly then in that same discussion one of the Raven Guard says "But now the Wolves will be involved, so it will be over soon". Followed by a bet as to whether it will Be Russ or Sanguinius to kill Horus.

I took from this that the Raven Guard believe that the Space Wolves are good/would be good at killing other Astartes and that the Raven Guard are not part of the Emperor's "Final sanction". Also that the Raven Guard do not believe that sending 7 legions to be the Emperor's "Final Sanction".

This mixed with some other/older fluff I justify it like this.

1. The Space Wolves are either the "Final sanction" or part of it.
2. The Emperor didn't want to send his "Final sanction" because he did not want to believe that Horus has turned to Chaos.
3. The force that was sent to Istvaan was not to kill Horus but to end his rebellion and capture him.
4. The Space Wolves were gathered as a third wave for Istvaan, like a sniper aiming through his scope waiting for the Kill order.
5. Magnus, sends his warning with Russ already on or near Terra.
6. The already gathered Space Wolves are sent to prospero instead.
7. Horus, sends message to Russ that it's really Magnus who is the traitor. Horus' rebellion is a lie being spread by Magnus' sorceries.

Disclaimer: While I can back up most of that with quotes, some of it is just my own justifications. It is just easier if Isstvan III happened during/after Prospero.

[trigger]

In deliverance lost Corax asks dorn and malcador were Russ is , they say they havnt heard from him since prospero