Bullet Proof Squad with a Sorcerer

[Axeman1n]

I had my thousand sons lead by a Sorcerer. I rolled a 5 for his divination power and he was able to get the power that let's him reroll everything. In close combat, his squad charged a squad of 20 boyz. The sorcerer was in the front. After all my blows were struck, there were still 19 boyz left over, and they did 11 wounds. I rolled the wounds 3 at a time against my sorcerer, and since he was able to reroll them, he failed none. In subsequent turns he failed one save, but I LookOutSir'd it to a Thousand Son.

Is this right? Can a single sorcerer placed at the front of a squad make his squad bullet proof?

[DoctorTom]

If you're rolling good dice like that, yeah.

[chrisloomis13]

The only problem is Chaos does not have access to Divination.

[Sami]

The only problem is Chaos does not have access to Divination.

Correct - they can only roll for Pyromancy, Telekinesis or Telepathy.

The trick the OP described is perfectly possible, and infact there are worse offenders. Dark Eldar can get a re-rollable shadowfield (2+ invul). Seeing as the main weakness of the shadowfield is that when you fail the first save it breaks and can't be used again, you've gone from a 1 in 6 chance of failing the save to 1 in 36.

[Khorneguy]

Correct - they can only roll for Pyromancy, Telekinesis or Telepathy.

The trick the OP described is perfectly possible, and infact there are worse offenders. Dark Eldar can get a re-rollable shadowfield (2+ invul). Seeing as the main weakness of the shadowfield is that when you fail the first save it breaks and can't be used again, you've gone from a 1 in 6 chance of failing the save to 1 in 36.

Except Precognition only works on the Psyker himself, not other models. It's impossible for an Archon to be a Psyker, so that trick doesn't work. The same trick on a Terminator Librarian or a Farseer on a Jetbike makes them pretty damn tough though

[2nd place]

The trick the OP described is perfectly possible, and infact there are worse offenders. Dark Eldar can get a re-rollable shadowfield (2+ invul). Seeing as the main weakness of the shadowfield is that when you fail the first save it breaks and can't be used again, you've gone from a 1 in 6 chance of failing the save to 1 in 36.

but as it says if the save is ever failed you lose it, would you not lose it even with a re-roll, as you had to fail the save to re-roll thus losing the 2+... and the rules says if you ever fail it.., by my count if you fail in order to re-roll you have failed a save...

or am I missing the point?

[Mr_Rose]

Yes. The point and purpose of a re-roll is to ignore the first result. The first die you rolls does to count for anything if you re-roll it, otherwise there's no point in even having re-rolls.

[Sami]

BRB, Page 5. Specifically, "The second roll counts". So in the case of a shadowfield that gets re-rolls, the first fail doesn't count. Only if it fails the second one will the shadowfield be broken.

Also, apologies - I forgot to mention I was referring to a Fortuned shadowfield (lets not have the "are Dark Eldar considered Eldar" debate in here!)

[2nd place]

I beat this combo the other day, I had a tyranid prime with 6 attack on the charge, challenge the archon, he failed fortune on his turn cause of shadow in the warp

and my prime with lash whip & bonesword and scything talons ran in, hit 6 times wounded 6 times, he failed in 2+ invun only once, but subsequently failed his LD test to and got ID's by the sword :P

[Axeman1n]

So, Eldrad with Fortune can bounce everything for his squad of Wraithguard. T6 to wound, with a 3++ rerollable.

[Sami]

Farseer should've been using Runes of Witnessing . If he was, then that was a very unlucky Ld roll

[BigHammer]

You shouldn't be taking a look out sir roll after failing a save; you make it when the wound is allocated, and if it's successful you re-allocate it and resolve it against the other model. If you decide to take the save on the character, you can't thereafter use look-out-sir to reallocate if you fail.

Aside from that, and the Sorceror-with-Divination error, you're correct. The rule is that you choose who to allocate a wound to, starting with models in base to base with a model that attacked on this initiative step, ie your sorceror, and once you've allocated a wound to someone you must continue to allocate to them until either they are dead or you've run out of wounds to allocate. Of course, a canny opponent would just challenge your sorceror; if you accept, you can only assign wounds allocated by his opponent to the sorc, the rest of the squads' attacks will hit the 1kS. If you refuse, the sorc takes no part in the combat.

I know it sounds like a great way to protect your squad from harm, but there are ways around in both in combat (challenges, different initiative values in base to base with non-character models) and shooting (barrage weapons, flank attacks, directed hits), so its hardly foolproof.

[Xandros]

So, Eldrad with Fortune can bounce everything for his squad of Wraithguard. T6 to wound, with a 3++ rerollable.

Yep! But you could challenge Eldrad to take him out of the fight.

[Axeman1n]

You shouldn't be taking a look out sir roll after failing a save; you make it when the wound is allocated, and if it's successful you re-allocate it and resolve it against the other model. If you decide to take the save on the character, you can't thereafter use look-out-sir to reallocate if you fail.

Aside from that, and the Sorceror-with-Divination error, you're correct. The rule is that you choose who to allocate a wound to, starting with models in base to base with a model that attacked on this initiative step, ie your sorceror, and once you've allocated a wound to someone you must continue to allocate to them until either they are dead or you've run out of wounds to allocate. Of course, a canny opponent would just challenge your sorceror; if you accept, you can only assign wounds allocated by his opponent to the sorc, the rest of the squads' attacks will hit the 1kS. If you refuse, the sorc takes no part in the combat.

I know it sounds like a great way to protect your squad from harm, but there are ways around in both in combat (challenges, different initiative values in base to base with non-character models) and shooting (barrage weapons, flank attacks, directed hits), so its hardly foolproof.

Doesn't it say for the Look out Sir rule that you may roll it for any wound (or unsaved wound) allocated to the IC. That would imply that you had a choice as to when you rolled for it? By my reading of the rule, it seems that if you succeed at the LookOutSir roll after you've failed the save, the model will take a wound with no saves allowed, and if you succeed before a save is rolled, the model will get a save as normal.

[BigHammer]

It's probably covered in detail in other threads, but the key in this rule is the timing. The look out sir roll happens when the wound is allocated, not when it is resolved. The "or unsaved wound" part is just to clarify that you can re-allocate even if the wound wouldn't normally allow the character a save (eg a SM librarian takes a lascannon wound; he doesn't have a save, so that wound is automatically "unsaved". He has a tactical squad nearby, so he can attempt to reallocate, even though the wound wouldn't normally be save-able).

This is all just RAW, though. RAI is another matter that's been discussed, I'm sure, in one of the more relevant threads. If the intention is that you can reallocate after a failed save, then the wound you reallocate will remain unsaved (so you don't get to try a character's 2+ armour and, if that fails, another model's 4+ cover, for example). The wording is unclear, as always, and it's worth mentioning that the assault version of look-out-sir's rules don't mention the "unsaved wound" bit, just wounds. It could do with an FAQ, in my opinion, but I think it's generally accepted that you make the look-out-sir attempt before any saves have been made.

[Seattledv8]

The only time you get to allocate an unsaved wound is if the character has the same save as the rest of the squad.
For example I have a squad of TH/SS terminators with Belail joined to them , he also is equipped with a TH/SS.

I would roll all of the saves at the same time, any fails that are allocated to the character could be LOS!(on a 2+) killing a squad member.
In your example the IC has a different save, if he take the save and fails it is too late for him to LOS!, he takes the wound.

[Lord Inquisitor]

No it's pretty clear, the killer is that wounds can be allocated both before and after saves. Look out sir is rolled before or after saves depending on which wound allocation system you are using (all same save or different saves in the unit). However, look out sir is clear that it is rolled for for each wound allocated. So you allocate a wound, then roll look out sir.

This isn't a choice - you are either allocating wounds after or before saves. If everyone has the same armour, then armour saves are taken before allocation. If everyone doesn't have the same save, then you are allocating before saves. But you don't have a choice.

Having two wound allocation systems is going to be confusing people until 7th.

[MasterDecoy]

yeah, probably should have just stuck with the mixed Armour method for everything and then had a fast dice rolling box for if they are the same (that would technically be a house rule)

[Lord Inquisitor]

I was thinking exactly the same thing. The only redeeming feature as I see it for this wound allocation system is the simplicity and ease of understanding, if they had only presented it purely as the mixed armour method no one would be confused.

[rexscarlet]

The only problem is Chaos does not have access to Divination.

The OP may not have the magical cards set, which contain the chart as to who gets what powers, as the BRB does NOT have a chart, yes?

AND the GW FaQs do not refer players to the magical cards set either, right?

So, RAW, the BRB is right, and any race can take any powers. Only if, you are playing with the "advanced supplement" magical cards set do you have to go by the chart enclosed.


I am kidding here, really I am kidding, rofl...