Bullet Proof Squad with a Sorcerer

[Chapters Unwritten]

So you can get an unsaved wound before rolling saves, eh?

[Lord Inquisitor]

So you can get an unsaved wound before rolling saves, eh?

If the look out sir rule said "unsaved wound" anywhere you might have a point.

[BigHammer]

If the look out sir rule said "unsaved wound" anywhere you might have a point.

It does. But to answer the question, yes. What happens when you shoot someone in power armour with a plasma-gun? Do they take an armour save then, or do they just suffer an unsaved wound?

[Chapters Unwritten]

It says it in the first sentence. You know, the very sentence that thrust this whole debate in the first place to the limelight?

It seems apparent to me that it can be done either way. The OP had the right of it; in assault, any models in base contact, the defending player can chose between them. If he chose to he could have taken every save on that sorceror, and when he failed one the unsaved wound could be LOS'ed to another model (who would NOT be able to save again...as the wound is already unsaved).

[DoctorTom]

So you can get an unsaved wound before rolling saves, eh?

Why, yes. Yes you can. You can get a wound against which no saves may be taken.

[Lord Inquisitor]

You are right and that's what I get for not checking. But I still don't see the ambiguity. It says when a "wound (or unsaved wound)" is allocated ... wounds are either yet to be saved or they're unsaved at the point of allocation.

[Chapters Unwritten]

You allocate before saves in some situations, after saves in others. No?

[Mr_Rose]

You allocate before saves in some situations, after saves in others.

That is indeed the case. If all of the unit's saves are the same, including the character, you save then allocate. If the saves are different, you allocate then save.

When you allocate to a character, you have the option to LOS the allocated wound.
So if the unit's saves are identical, you roll all the saves then start allocating and, when you get to a character, you can LOS an unsaved wound. And if the saves are not identical you allocate wounds that are not yet either saved or unsaved, which can the be LOS'd from a character to a mook as desired, before rolling the save.

You never get to the point where you roll the save then LOS; either you roll the save then allocate then LOS, or you allocate then LOS then save.

[CrownAxe]

You allocate before saves in some situations, after saves in others. No?

Yes.

LOS! is tested for at the allocation of the wound, regardless of if the save has been taken or not. Sometimes the save is taken before allocation (which the unit and character having the same save is the only reason) but generally you will end up allocating prior to making saves.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

It seems apparent to me that it can be done either way.

A very important point that I think you kind of gloss over in this post is that it's not a choice. It might be done one way or the other way (depending on whether mixed saves apply), but you never get to freely decide which way you're going to do it.

If he chose to he could have taken every save on that sorceror, and when he failed one the unsaved wound could be LOS'ed to another model (who would NOT be able to save again...as the wound is already unsaved).

This is never true; you cannot allocate, then roll save, then re-allocate with LOS!. If he takes the wound on the sorceror before rolling saves, it has been allocated to the sorceror, and he must LOS! at that moment or leave it on the sorceror, pass or fail.

So, either they're using the same saves (and having a re-roll available IMO makes it a different save, or else the re-roll becomes mostly useless in same-save units) and you roll saves before allocating, or, as in this case, you allocate to the sorceror, decide whether to LOS!, and then roll saves for the sorceror (or the model LOS!'d to).

[thenurgler]

Except Precognition only works on the Psyker himself, not other models. It's impossible for an Archon to be a Psyker, so that trick doesn't work. The same trick on a Terminator Librarian or a Farseer on a Jetbike makes them pretty damn tough though

Well but since Eldar and Dark Eldar are battle brothers you can have Eldrad Fortune up your Shadowfield. Pretty damn good if you ask me!

[Chapters Unwritten]

This is never true; you cannot allocate, then roll save, then re-allocate with LOS!. If he takes the wound on the sorceror before rolling saves, it has been allocated to the sorceror, and he must LOS! at that moment or leave it on the sorceror, pass or fail.

I am a bit confused. How else can one get an "unsaved wound" to LOS away, if they do not first roll a save?

I don't level a lot of criticism at GW but that this particular bit doesn't include an example is quite an oversight.

[Mr_Rose]

I am a bit confused. How else can one get an "unsaved wound" to LOS away, if they do not first roll a save?

You've been told several times: by rolling the save before allocating the wound, as in the case of the unit having identical saves.
The two sequences available are:

1. Roll to hit –> roll to wound –> roll to save –> allocate –> LOS
2. Roll to hit –> roll to wound –> allocate –> LOS –> roll to save

You are insisting on the following:

• Roll to hit –> roll to wound –> allocate –> roll to save –> LOS ( –> roll save again?)

Or something like it, which is wrong; LOS comes directly after allocation, with no intermediate steps like taking a save.

[Mandragola]

You've been told several times: by rolling the save before allocating the wound, as in the case of the unit having identical saves.
The two sequences available are:

1. Roll to hit –> roll to wound –> roll to save –> allocate –> LOS
2. Roll to hit –> roll to wound –> allocate –> LOS –> roll to save

You are insisting on the following:

• Roll to hit –> roll to wound –> allocate –> roll to save –> LOS ( –> roll save again?)

Or something like it, which is wrong; LOS comes directly after allocation, with no intermediate steps like taking a save.

This is correct.

If it doesn't make sense it's because you don't understand the wound allocation rules. They are confusing but on this occasion the rules are actually there.

[Lord Inquisitor]

I was going to post something similar but Mr Rose got it perfectly.

The allocation step depends on which system you use so it can either be a "wound" (i.e. a yet-to-be-saved wound) if you are using complex unit allocation, or an "unsaved wound" (i.e. a failed save wound) if you are using the simple unit allocation system. It can be either at the point of allocation - but not both and there is no choice which method you use.

[Axeman1n]

You've been told several times: by rolling the save before allocating the wound, as in the case of the unit having identical saves.
The two sequences available are:

1. Roll to hit –> roll to wound –> roll to save –> allocate –> LOS
2. Roll to hit –> roll to wound –> allocate –> LOS –> roll to save

You are insisting on the following:

• Roll to hit –> roll to wound –> allocate –> roll to save –> LOS -> Apply wound with no saves allowed.

Or something like it, which is wrong; LOS comes directly after allocation, with no intermediate steps like taking a save.

Fixed it.

This expaination is the easiest to understand. Will be doing 1 or 2 from now on. Seems like a flow chart would not be too hard to have included in the book though.

[xxRavenxx]

Well but since Eldar and Dark Eldar are battle brothers you can have Eldrad Fortune up your Shadowfield. Pretty damn good if you ask me!

I contest that Dark eldar are not Eldar. In the same way that Falcon grav tanks ARE eldar. The name cited is the books's name, not the races name.




Anyway, back to the topic! While the "bullet shield" idea is reasonably sound if you know exactly whats coming at you (combat being a prime one) its also quite possible that your opponent opens up with a round of plasma gun justice (or similar) and just annihilates any 2+ guy who's trying to body block. Remember he allocates the order of different weapons, so can crisp you up before the light arms land on your squad.

[Thanatos_elNyx]

You've been told several times: by rolling the save before allocating the wound, as in the case of the unit having identical saves.
The two sequences available are:

1. Roll to hit –> roll to wound –> roll to save –> allocate –> LOS
2. Roll to hit –> roll to wound –> allocate –> LOS –> roll to save

Or something like it, which is wrong; LOS comes directly after allocation, with no intermediate steps like taking a save.

Yes these are the only two ways of splitting it up.
So the question is, which do you apply in the OP situation.

A Sorcerer has the same save as the squad so you would have to use Sequence 1, which doesn't allow you to reroll his saves.
Unless you do something like this: Roll to hit –> roll to wound –> roll to save –> allocate to Sorcerer –> reroll to save –> LOS
Which I don't think is right.

Or you can consider them different save from the fact that they have a reroll:
Roll to hit –> roll to wound –> allocate to Sorcerer –> LOS –> roll to save -> Reroll to save.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

Or you can consider them different save from the fact that they have a reroll:

I think that makes the most sense. A save with a re-roll is quite different from a save without a re-roll. And if the principle is that any given model gets to use its own save, as it seems to be, then it's the consistent conclusion.

[alextroy]

However, it would be more efficient to roll all the saves once, then reroll only the unsaved wounds assigned to the model which do not get LOSed away to other models.