Did the Ultramarines lost at Calth? *Spoilers for Know No Fear*

[Lord_Crull]

At the end of Know No Fear, Erebus explains that the Word Bearers real main objective was to take the Ultramarines out of the Heresy. Their intention was to cripple the Ultramarine war effort and cut them off from the rest of the Imperium.

At the end the Word Bearers very arguably accomplish both. 4/5ths of the Ultramarine fleet is mentioned to be destroyed and at least half of the Ultramarines at Calth are killed, with possible more dead. A large chunk of the Ultramarines are left standard on Calth while the Warp storms close in. Meanwhile the Word Bearers and the World Eaters prepared to attack the rest of Ultramar.

From a strategic point of view I could certainly argue the Word Bearers won, and depending on how you interpret the book, they chose with withdraw, rather than the Ultramarines forcing them out.

I wish to hear people's thoughts on this.

[Scammel]

Well, the Word Bearers expended xyz forces and neither successfully destroyed the Imperium nor crippled the Ultras (who probably emerge from the heresy better off than any of the other actors involved). I suppose it kinda depends on intent and the other possible outcomes - would the Emperor still be walking and talking if the Ultras could contribute more to the imperial effort, for example? Did WB losses debilitate their own efforts? Could those forces have had a more significant impact elsewhere?

[Joewrightgm]

Militarily speaking, if the word bearers goal was to cripple their ability to project force, I think they did a good job; 100,000 space marines (little under half of the 250,000 of the ultra marines stated strength) and the destruction of the capture shipyards means that they nearly crippled the ultramarine's ability to function.

From that aspect, they succeeded, but if they were after destroying the legion entirely, they failed. Either way, they've contained their influence to the eastern fringe

[Scammel]

Either way, they've contained their influence to the eastern fringe

For the Heresy, at least. But in the long term one could argue that the Word Bearers inadvertently handed the Ultras the Imperium, who were no doubt a significant reason why the Imperium still endures.

Actually, this reminds me a bit of the Battle for the Fang, remembered as a Wolf victory despite Magnus succeeding in all his objectives with even some added bonuses.

[Bonzai]

It was also stated in The Primarchs, that Erebus's little ritual caused massive warp storms that also helped to contain the Ultramarines. I really love how the HH novels kind of shows Horus's plan of divide and conquer. First he sends the Wolves off after the 1K Sons, ensuring that neither loyalst legion will have the strength to fight him. That Magnus was latter forced into being an ally was an added bonus. The Ironhands, Salamanders, and Raven Guard were pretty much gutted at Istivaan. From there he had the Nightlords keep the Dark Angels busy, the Word Bearers take the Ultramarines out of the picture, and he had a plan to keep the White Scars in the dark. This would have allowed him to bring a full 6 legions to terra against the Blood Angels and Imperial Fists on Terra. I also think that Horus though that he had a good shot at turning Sanguinus.

It shows that Horus was the Warmaster for a reason. He had a good plan, and a very real chance of winning. The Ultra Marines were what ultimately tipped the balance in the Siege. It gave Hous a time table that he had to win by. Having a deadline really doesn't work well with a siege style engagement. If he didn't defeat the Emperor before Guilleman got there, he would have been caught between the palace and their fleet. The Space Wolves and Dark Angel's were also in route, but would have probably been too late.

[The bearded one]

It makes me wonder though; with 2/5ths of the ultramarines dead (that's a lot of dead astartes!) and 4/5ths of their fleet crippled, how much of a threat would the ultramarines have been against the 6 traitor legions (plus surviving elements of the word bearers?) at the siege of Terra? The Space wolves and dark angels alongside them would've done them in, but the ultramarines alone?

[nagash66]

It makes me wonder though; with 2/5ths of the ultramarines dead (that's a lot of dead astartes!) and 4/5ths of their fleet crippled, how much of a threat would the ultramarines have been against the 6 traitor legions (plus surviving elements of the word bearers?) at the siege of Terra? The Space wolves and dark angels alongside them would've done them in, but the ultramarines alone?

You need to remember that in the new timeline terra doesn't happen for a good decade after calth ( 8 years iirc), which is plenty of time to repair, regroup and re acquire anything they would need.

[daveNYC]

You need to remember that in the new timeline terra doesn't happen for a good decade after calth ( 8 years iirc), which is plenty of time to repair, regroup and re acquire anything they would need.

That's not nearly enough time to replace the fleet assets though. It might have been enough time to try and repair some of the wrecks in the Calth system, but the orbital assets around the planet are pretty well wrecked, the changes made to the sun probably make salvage work even harder than it would be normally.
Even the creation of more Space Marines would be difficult due to the loss of geneseed.

[Kijamon]

The Space Wolves and Dark Angel's were also in route, but would have probably been too late.

The old fluff, not black library-fied yet states that exact thing. The combined fleets of the Space Wolves and Dark Angels would have gained space superiority and blown the hell out of the Chaos forces.

However, Leman Russ pulled the fleet out of the warp to save a vital Imperial planet, Dark Angels got mad. Butts were hurt when they got back to Terra just in time to help mop up the routed Chaos.

An ancient story has a devastated Leman Russ allow the Lion to kill him after the Lion challenges him to a duel under a statue in the Emperor's Palace. The Lion struck Russ's primary heart but realised what a stupid thing he was doing and diverted the blade rather than killing Russ.

I'm guessing the duel will be retconned unless Leman Russ is unlucky enough to have his primary heart stabbed twice.

[Polaria]

Looking at it from Horus Lupercals point of view, yes, the Ultramarines lost at Calth since they were beaten enough to be late for Terra. As was the plan Horus was depending on in his assault towards Terra.

Looking at it from Lorgars point of view the operation was a mediocre success at best since his objective was the total destruction of loyalist forces on Calth, death of Roboute Guilliman and total humiliation of XIII Legion.

Looking at it from Roboute Guillimans point of view the Ultramarines won a pyrrhic victory. They avoided the trap, got out alive and thus foiled the Lorgars plan. However, they paid for that moral victory through the nose and were late for Terra. However, if they HAD made it to Terra they would have probably suffered massive casualties there, too, and probably couldn't have forced Guillimans Codex on everyone else and emerge the undeniably strongest legion 10 000 years later...

[Inquisitor Engel]

You need to remember that in the new timeline terra doesn't happen for a good decade after calth ( 8 years iirc), which is plenty of time to repair, regroup and re acquire anything they would need.

I thought the new timeline was 7 years from Isstvan to Terra? The old one being scant months.

[Nazguire]

Engel is correct, the authors have repeatedly said 7 years from Istvaan to Terra, with Age of Darkness detailing some of the events in between those 7 years.

[Polaria]

You need to remember that in the new timeline terra doesn't happen for a good decade after calth ( 8 years iirc), which is plenty of time to repair, regroup and re acquire anything they would need.

In Warhammer 40 000 world 7 or 8 years isn't nearly enough to get Ultramarines back up from losses in Calth. Recruiting and training an Astartes takes, at minimum, 6 years from the moment of recruiting to being ready to carry power armor (and even then he is pretty damn young and inexperienced in comparison to older astartes) and you can't recruit 100 000 new Astartes at once because you simply don't have enough geneseed or, more importantly, enough implantation facilities and apothecaries to handle that many. For example in Deliverance Lost when the Corax started to regrow Raven Guards using a gene-engineer superfast geneseed to do it they could still handle only 300 recruits in one go because of the lack of equipment and facilities.

Building up the lost fleet is even worse. Building a single warship is a monumental work taking decades. If the Ultramarines lost 80% of their fleet capacity it could easily take several decades even if they had several Forge Worlds doing nothing but that in their disposal.

[nagash66]

7 years is enough time to replace fleet loses. Now for this to make sense people need to remember some things:

1) Ships already being build for the great crusade.
2) Ships previously stationed for defense or patrol not at calth that can be re allocated.
3) Repairing and re arming the less wrecked hulks and ships at calth.
4) Ships previously intended for other legions that can be seized/given from loyalist planets.

Now i am not saying these actions would magically make it like calth never happened. What i am putting forth is that since not much action takes place in ultramar after calth which would allow resource re allocation, combined with it higher pre existing production ( after all those previous 250.000 marines would need constantly produced ships to cover losses and expand the legion) and the possibility of seizing ships previously directed at other legions could create a viable fleet to go to Terra 7 years after calth.

As for ultramarine losses on the ground, again the Ultras always had the biggest recruit pool, production facilities and marine output numbers. If we assume emergency measures ( such as greatly reduced scout time, risky genetic practises, etc) and the stripping of all marine defense formations it is highly doable that the force headed for terra to be 150.000+.

I am not saying it would be easy, but with the vast majority of traitor forces stationed/active far from ultramar the possibility of strip mining all defenses/resources to lift the siege of terra is a real possibility.

[Polaria]

7 years is enough time to replace fleet loses. Now for this to make sense people need to remember some things:

1) Ships already being build for the great crusade.
2) Ships previously stationed for defense or patrol not at calth that can be re allocated.
3) Repairing and re arming the less wrecked hulks and ships at calth.
4) Ships previously intended for other legions that can be seized/given from loyalist planets.

Except that in the years following the Calth the Gods of Chaos made sure all warp routes were as unstable as possible and astropath communications were made increasingly difficult. At the same time Mechanicum was in the middle of a full-scale civil war and chaos cults started to appear all around the Galaxy, further destabilizing the Imperial infarstructure. The measures you suggest on replacing the lost fleet all assume that:

1) You can actually get astropathic message through to High Lords of Terra who can authorize for wide scale shift on resource use.
2) High Lords of Terra can actually get astropathic message through to loyal elements of Mechanicum to reroute all available ships to Ultramarines.
3) The ships actually leave the docks intact and are not sabotaged or hijacked by chaos cultists inside the crew.
4) The ships actually can navigate through the warp and are not lost in warp storms.
5) The warp currents are favourable and the ships actually arrive in time and not something like 10 or 20 years late as is often the case.

[nagash66]

1) You can actually get astropathic message through to High Lords of Terra who can authorize for wide scale shift on resource use.
2) High Lords of Terra can actually get astropathic message through to loyal elements of Mechanicum to reroute all available ships to Ultramarines.

High Lords of Terra don't exist in 30k, you might be thinking of the council of terra but they 1) don't have military authority,2) Primarchs would do what they hell they wanted anyhow.

3) The ships actually leave the docks intact and are not sabotaged or hijacked by chaos cultists inside the crew.
4) The ships actually can navigate through the warp and are not lost in warp storms.
5) The warp currents are favourable and the ships actually arrive in time and not something like 10 or 20 years late as is often the case.

Difficult yes, but we have numerous examples that it was possible, garro going around the galaxy collecting the Grey Knight Grand Master and getting back to Terra before the Siege, The blood angels, imperial fist, white scar fleets while delayed show that forces can be moved no matter how much chaos doesnt want them too.

Lastly you assume that chaos went ahead and plunged ultramar with warp storms, a fact that i would contest as it takes Erebus and the sacrifice of a entire world ( calth) just to effect that system, know no fear directly states that this was a primary objective at the battle for calth, which indicates that gods or no the traitors cant just plunge anywhere in the galaxy with warp storms at will.

As for cultists and the like the heresy series has show that while word bearer planets, previously chaotic systems and the like were breeding grounds for heresy, most imperial worlds ( especially those taken early in the crusade or in the case of ultramar already pre existing as a organized and well governed human empire) had embraced the imperial truth wholeheartedly, in addition that for every potential chaotic cultist there exists a lectitio diviantus nutjob to counter balance any attempt at mass sedition.

[Polaria]

High Lords of Terra don't exist in 30k, you might be thinking of the council of terra but they 1) don't have military authority,2) Primarchs would do what they hell they wanted anyhow.

Council of Terra did not have military authority, Warmaster did. Which would kinda rule any Ultramarine rebuilding plans... With Warmaster rebelling the authority transferred to Emperor, who was locked behind Custodes unwilling to see anyone (except Corax for very briefly in Deliverance Lost), so the authority to reroute resources would have been in hands of Malcador and (as The Outcast Dead tells) pretty isolated by warp storms.

And Primarchs doing whatever they wanted anyhow... Yes, the ones that did so were Horus, Fulgrim, Lorgar, Angron, Perturabo and so on. Look where that took 'em.

Difficult yes, but we have numerous examples that it was possible, garro going around the galaxy collecting the Grey Knight Grand Master and getting back to Terra before the Siege, The blood angels, imperial fist, white scar fleets while delayed show that forces can be moved no matter how much chaos doesnt want them too.

Moving one big fleet is logistically a lot simpler than coordinating the movement of hundreds of ships from all around the Galaxy into Calth or Ultramar. Refitting Ultramarines would have been easy if they would have had huge storages of ships and recruits waiting in Ultramar, but they did not. Know No Fear makes it pretty clear that at the time of Calth Roboute Guilliman assumed the biggest crusades were over and he did not expect his Legion to see wide-scale action any time soon. Thus there would have been no need to produce ships and recruit marines in huge numbers as they were not expecting to suffer severe losses any time in foreseeable future.

Lastly you assume that chaos went ahead and plunged ultramar with warp storms, a fact that i would contest as it takes Erebus and the sacrifice of a entire world ( calth) just to effect that system, know no fear directly states that this was a primary objective at the battle for calth, which indicates that gods or no the traitors cant just plunge anywhere in the galaxy with warp storms at will.

Yes, if you've only read Know No Fear you would really think this is the case. However, several other novels clearly state out that during this time it was almost impossible to get astropathic communication through from Terra to other worlds or back. Several stories also mention strong warp currents affecting travel not only around Terra, but all around the galaxy. I don't know who the Gods of Chaos sacrificed to get that done as the books won't tell, but it still stands as fait accompli.

[TomsDad]

I guess It depends on what each side is going to use both the engaged forces for in the long term.

The Word Bearer's (once they have declared for Horus) main strength seems to be in their ability to manipulate the warp and work with daemons. Of course they can fight but they're not the best and there are better available for Horus. The Ultra marine's main strength seems to be as a powerful military force with a stable footing, something the Emperor is running short of.

So I think as an overall effect on the Heresy it's a net win for Horus, the WB are able to continue to be employed is a way that makes the best use of them, while the UM's are not destroyed by any means, but their ability to play to their strengths and be effective is severely reduced.

Although as already stated this possibly leaves them in a stronger position in the aftermath than the others

[nagash66]

Council of Terra did not have military authority, Warmaster did. Which would kinda rule any Ultramarine rebuilding plans... With Warmaster rebelling the authority transferred to Emperor, who was locked behind Custodes unwilling to see anyone (except Corax for very briefly in Deliverance Lost), so the authority to reroute resources would have been in hands of Malcador and (as The Outcast Dead tells) pretty isolated by warp storms.

No it does not revert back to Malcador, it reverts back to the crusade power structure of each Primarch being the supreme authority of their own domain and forces answering only to the Emperor. They dont need permission to requisition ships or munitions or anything else. Would not have been realistic in the crusade, would never be realistic any other time.

And Primarchs doing whatever they wanted anyhow... Yes, the ones that did so were Horus, Fulgrim, Lorgar, Angron, Perturabo and so on. Look where that took 'em.

Please we have numerous examples of numerous loyal primarch breaking major rules at will, the most glaring example is how the Nikea ( you know just a direct Imperial edict) edict is throw out the nearest window by the BA, DA ( who primarch executes a Chaplain who dares questions him) and others.

Moving one big fleet is logistically a lot simpler than coordinating the movement of hundreds of ships from all around the Galaxy into Calth or Ultramar. Refitting Ultramarines would have been easy if they would have had huge storages of ships and recruits waiting in Ultramar, but they did not. Know No Fear makes it pretty clear that at the time of Calth Roboute Guilliman assumed the biggest crusades were over and he did not expect his Legion to see wide-scale action any time soon. Thus there would have been no need to produce ships and recruit marines in huge numbers as they were not expecting to suffer severe losses any time in foreseeable future.

But it can be done, the HH books have dozens of examples of ships going where they will, sure there are delays and added danger but the made it and in reasonable time, be it Garros galactic tour, Corax splitting of his ships and taking a detour back to Terra, or how the Imperial Navy officer in Deliverance lost manages to go to his home-world across the galaxy, raise troops and ships and make it back to corax with 1 terran year.

Yes, if you've only read Know No Fear you would really think this is the case. However, several other novels clearly state out that during this time it was almost impossible to get astropathic communication through from Terra to other worlds or back. Several stories also mention strong warp currents affecting travel not only around Terra, but all around the galaxy. I don't know who the Gods of Chaos sacrificed to get that done as the books won't tell, but it still stands as fait accompli.

But that is the point, some places have total shutdown, some partial and some are completely normal, and, so far all we know of the area around ultramar is what happened in Know no fear. It stands to reason that if Ultramar has already been heavily affected then the Word Beares would not have had to prioritize their sacrifice so highly.


Polaria i really don't understand what you are trying to get at, as ultimately we already know the Ultramarines did managed to regroup and re arm, that they did managed to get to terra, and that there forces were enough to make Horrus worry. This is all fact, i merely put forward how they could have done so.

[Polaria]

Polaria i really don't understand what you are trying to get at, as ultimately we already know the Ultramarines did managed to regroup and re arm, that they did managed to get to terra, and that there forces were enough to make Horrus worry. This is all fact, i merely put forward how they could have done so.

Actually unless the Black Library rewrites older fluff Ultramarines were late for Terra and only arrived once the battle was over. The original fluff is that only three loyalist legions: Blood Angels, White Scars and Imperial Fists were there in terra to take on the nine traitor legions when Horus started his assault. Also, since that story has not been told yet we actually DON'T know if they managed to replenish their losses or if they just shipped the surivors of Calth to Terra with whatever ships they had. There is a great difference between 250 000 fresh Ultramarines arriving into Terra orbit with full fleet of brand new ships or about 50 000 Ultramarines crammed into half-dead ships while the rest of the survivors of Calth are garrisoning Ultramar because there isn't enough ships to go around. We simply don't know which one is the case.