Did the Ultramarines lost at Calth? *Spoilers for Know No Fear*

[Polaria]

"Ships take decades, even centuries to build, if the builders have the required skills and knowledge base in it is rare to find a "new" starship - most are hundreds or thousands of years old... Therefore, ships are never mass-produced, and even two ships of the same class are rarely alike." (Rogue Trader Core Rulebook, p.189)

"Building a void-ship from scratch is a massive undertaking; it can take years to complete an escort-class vessel and centuries to build a capital ship. Such a vast effort requires countless number of workers and huge amounts of refined materials. A great work like this might not be completed for generations." (Rogue Trader Battlefleet Koronus, p.46)

[Inquisitor Engel]

"Ships take decades, even centuries to build, if the builders have the required skills and knowledge base in it is rare to find a "new" starship - most are hundreds or thousands of years old... Therefore, ships are never mass-produced, and even two ships of the same class are rarely alike." (Rogue Trader Core Rulebook, p.189)

"Building a void-ship from scratch is a massive undertaking; it can take years to complete an escort-class vessel and centuries to build a capital ship. Such a vast effort requires countless number of workers and huge amounts of refined materials. A great work like this might not be completed for generations." (Rogue Trader Battlefleet Koronus, p.46)

BFG's background supersedes anything in Rogue Trader.

The past is the past, my friend. The Great Crusade could never have happened unless the shipyards of Mars and Saturn (amongst other other myriad human worlds) weren't cranking out ships at the rate of a few a year. And they were.

[Wyrmwood]

It's also worth pointing out that the Word Bearers entered a major recruitment drive in preparation for the events at Calth. Now, vaguely understanding the esoteric nature of Chaos worship as outlined in various sources - and, presumably, Lorgar's objective (through Erebus): that is, to break up the material universe around Ultramar, which required massive human sacrifices, would it be fair to say that most of the Word Bearers sent to Calth were there as sacrifices?

The blood of zealous betrayers would be just as important as the blood of the betrayed.

From that perspective, the objective was not to slaughter - the desire to slaughter was important in providing extra power for each individual sacrifice. Several important figures from within the legion were there, with the two most important essentially orchestrating the ritual war. With every Neophyte bought up and bred to die at Calth, they would need powerful guiding hands from within the legion to direct the rituals. Dying for the cause, and all that. Calth was chosen for its significance more than anything, and it's this symbolic nature that's amplified.

It seems to me like the objective was achieved. Ultramar is shrouded; the Ultramarines bloodied, but not beaten, with the main body of the Word Bearers assaulting the rest of the system to provide further fuel for the initial triggering of the storms, allowing them to grow and spread; and to act as a barrier for the Ultramarines when they eventually recover.

If all went as planned, perhaps the palace at Terra would have been refortified in preparation a defence against the Ultramarines?

[Londinium]

For this debate over whether it was possible to rebuild the fleet in 7 years. Have a look at how many ships a year Britain and Germany were pumping out in their naval race before WW1. Their populations are a speck compared to Ultramar but this is equalled out by the fact that 40k ships take many more man hours to construct. Needless to say, even with early 20th century tech, if you have the manpower and raw materials, you can pump out ships at impressive rates. This isn't 40k, where no one has a clue of what they're doing and every nut, bolt and rivet needs to be consecrated by twenty prayers to the Machine God.

[Swordsman]

That's a tough call, really.

While they did manage to slow down the Ultramarines; they completely failed to cripple the Legion - or assassinate Guilliman - which seemed to be two of the many goals they set out to achieve.

In a way, they set the Ultramarines up to inherit the Imperium.. perhaps we should thank them..

[ryng_sting]

Those four (so far) indisputable facts pretty much seal my conclusions as:

- Horus got what he wanted out of Calth: Ultramarines were not in Terra when he started the Siege but Word Bearers were
- Lorgar did not get what he wanted, but mainly because he was reaching for the stars instead of setting realistic goals
- Roboute Guilliman did get what he wanted because he was fighting for the very survival of his Legion. He survived and his legion is 10 000 years later bigger than ever before.

One ought to remember that the WB effectively split into two groups before the battle: one under Kor Phaeron, bound for Calth; and one under Lorgar, bound for Terra with the rest of Horus's forces.

And 10,000 years later Guilliman's legion doesn't exist: there is only the Ultramarines chapter. I assume you meant to say there's a lot of Ultramarine successor chapters.

[Inquisitor Engel]

One ought to remember that the WB effectively split into two groups before the battle: one under Kor Phaeron, bound for Calth; and one under Lorgar, bound for Terra with the rest of Horus's forces.

It would appear we're getting a bit of a retcon on this - the Word Bearers under Lorgar and the World Eaters are going to campaign against the Ultramarines, as detailed in "Butcher's Nails" and the upcoming "Betrayer." Presumably this was a force either designed to mop up what was left after Calth, or a force designed to say "Dammit Kor-Phaeron can't you do ANYTHING right?!" and destroy the Ultramarines once and for all.

And 10,000 years later Guilliman's legion doesn't exist: there is only the Ultramarines chapter. I assume you meant to say there's a lot of Ultramarine successor chapters.

Given both the events in the flashback in "Void Stalker" and the general hinting of things in the two previous Space Marines Codices, there seems to be A LOT more cooperation and coordination between 1st Founding Chapters and their 2nd Founding successors than their is between your average chapters. Blood Angels and Dark Angels especially seem to exert significant control over their successors and there's no reason to assume it's not the same amongst the others. They are, in effect, working as Legions, albeit much smaller ones.

[Polaria]

BFG's background supersedes anything in Rogue Trader.

Why would it? RT fluff is much, much more recent writing and much more detailed than anything in BFG.

[Inquisitor Engel]

Why would it? RT fluff is much, much more recent writing and much more detailed than anything in BFG.

Rogue Trader was published in 1987. BFG was published in 1999.

[nagash66]

Rogue Trader was published in 1987. BFG was published in 1999.

Not only that but as both of those sources deal with 40k shipbuilding, as a result of the MASSIVE technological and organizational gap between the eras they are largely irrelevant.

[Lord Damocles]

Rogue Trader was published in 1987. BFG was published in 1999.

The other Rogue Trader, perhaps?

(The one about ships and stuff...)

[Londinium]

Given both the events in the flashback in "Void Stalker" and the general hinting of things in the two previous Space Marines Codices, there seems to be A LOT more cooperation and coordination between 1st Founding Chapters and their 2nd Founding successors than their is between your average chapters. Blood Angels and Dark Angels especially seem to exert significant control over their successors and there's no reason to assume it's not the same amongst the others. They are, in effect, working as Legions, albeit much smaller ones.

Although the stuff that happened in Void Stalker should be stated with the caveat that it occurred during The Scouring, so within living marine memory of the formation of the 2nd Founding Chapters. A good chunk of the Primogenitors that served in that campaign were probably Ultramarines at an earlier point in their career as they would have been more open to such extensive cooperation than the same chapters with 10,000 years extra divergent history.

[Inquisitor Engel]

The other Rogue Trader, perhaps?

(The one about ships and stuff...)

Ahhhh that sheds some light on it. "RT" is typically (and almost universally) the abbreviation for the 1st Edition of 40k. It also seems to deal with 'modern' 40k and not Crusade-era 40k and we're quite aware that the level of technological advancement and product capabilities during the Crusade were vastly superior to that of the 41st Millennium.

That said, I personally take anything from FFG with a larger grain of salt than anything BL has pushed out. There's some cool stuff out there to be sure, but in terms of canon hierarchy, it's definitely below the Black Library.

Although the stuff that happened in Void Stalker should be stated with the caveat that it occurred during The Scouring, so within living marine memory of the formation of the 2nd Founding Chapters. A good chunk of the Primogenitors that served in that campaign were probably Ultramarines at an earlier point in their career as they would have been more open to such extensive cooperation than the same chapters with 10,000 years extra divergent history.

Yeah I'll give it that, though it still sets a pretty good precedent, as Talos speaks of the convergence of Chapters as if it was something they hadn't seen in some time. There's always The Feast of Blades among the Imperial Fists and their successors, which paints the picture of cooperation and communication at a moment's notice if required.

[Londinium]

Yeah I'll give it that, though it still sets a pretty good precedent, as Talos speaks of the convergence of Chapters as if it was something they hadn't seen in some time. There's always The Feast of Blades among the Imperial Fists and their successors, which paints the picture of cooperation and communication at a moment's notice if required.

For what it's worth I like the idea that the originators of the Codex Astartes, the Ultramarines are actually breaking one of it's precepts by acting as one Legion at times. It was one of the nuggets of information from Void Stalker I really liked. Just thought I'd point out that it's not necessarily still common in 40k...although I'd like it if there were rumours about Ultramarine later founding chapters kow towing to Macragge.

[Polaria]

Rogue Trader was published in 1987. BFG was published in 1999.

Not Warhammer 40 000: Rogue Trader, but the Rogue Trader Core Rulebook which came out in 2009.

Not only that but as both of those sources deal with 40k shipbuilding, as a result of the MASSIVE technological and organizational gap between the eras they are largely irrelevant.

It is true that Heresy Era was technologically much more advanced, but I would not be so sure that AdMech had lost so much technology that they could do things 100 times faster in Ye Oldie Days... There is still the little problem from Ultramarines Legion that during this era Mechanicum Forge Worlds were in middle of a large-scale civil war and there was still a lot of trouble getting ships intact from any Forge World to anyplace else. So unless the Ultramarines legion refitted in the same system with a ship-building Forge World which was surprisingly NOT involved in Mechanicum civil war then they would have had these problems to deal with...

The other Rogue Trader, perhaps?

(The one about ships and stuff...)

Yes, this one.

[Inquisitor Engel]

Not Warhammer 40 000: Rogue Trader, but the Rogue Trader Core Rulebook which came out in 2009.

Again, as I said in my post, "RT" as an abbreviation refers to 1st edition 40k and has for years and will continue to do so.

[Skopey]

Its a given that the Ultramarines forces would have been heavily diminished whenever they arrive at Terra. But whenever they do arrive at Terra i think its safe to say that the traitors too are gonna be a tad on the weaker side by that point. surely. Thats something Horus would take into account as the warmaster. Im not just taking into account the fact that he would suffer losses in the siege but im sure he would take into consideration the wider campaigns affect on the strength of his forces. this is something im sure will all get addressed in future books. Plus Horus knows that the likes of Dorn and Guilliman were rivals to his position as warmaster. He knows they are not stupid or as unstable as a few of the primarchs and their legions he has under his banner. If he risked someone like Guilliman getting toTerra regardless of their legions power it would be a very dangerous risk. And thats a risk im sure Horus would not be willing to take with any of his Borthers but especially Guilliman Dont forget it probabaly wouldnt only be the legion headed for terra but what ever Regiments of Guard guilliman could muster, as well as Mechanicus and their legions of titans.. But i would have thought it wouldnt take long for Guilliman to get the resources from Loyal worlds to raise regiments of guard and/or mechanicus to be routed to Terra for his arrival. Im sure Horus would know that. Time wasn't on his side.

[SomeRandomEvilGuy]

For what it's worth I like the idea that the originators of the Codex Astartes, the Ultramarines are actually breaking one of it's precepts by acting as one Legion at times. It was one of the nuggets of information from Void Stalker I really liked. Just thought I'd point out that it's not necessarily still common in 40k...although I'd like it if there were rumours about Ultramarine later founding chapters kow towing to Macragge.

In that instance they aren't breaking one of the precepts of the Adeptus Astartes. They were working together to destroy a foe that, Chapter against Legion, they were individually weaker than. That sort of thing is exactly what's supposed to happen.

[Lord_Crull]

That's a tough call, really.

While they did manage to slow down the Ultramarines; they completely failed to cripple the Legion - or assassinate Guilliman - which seemed to be two of the many goals they set out to achieve.

Kor Phaeron's goal had absolutely been the complete destruction of the Ultramarines. But that just seemed to be his personal goal and objective.

However, Erebus has other goals. At the end of the novel, he considers his missions accomplished. His ritual is complete, and the Ultramarines are crippled. For him that is enough, and was all that mattered. He leaves the world behind, having fulfilled his mission given to him by Lorgar. This indicates, especially with Lorgar hismelf being absent and pursuing other objectives at a nearby location, that the total destruction really was not a very crucial objective for the Word Bearers. It was for Kor Phaeron. This was his battle. But it was not for Lorgar or the Word Bearers.

Erebus even acknowledges that the Ultramarines managed to achieve something, a degree of pride, to not have been completely annihilated. But it matters not to him.

Their accomplishment, in this story, is to take a heavy blow better than expected.

[Israfael]

Kor Phaeron's goal had absolutely been the complete destruction of the Ultramarines. But that just seemed to be his personal goal and objective.

It's pretty clear in the novel, that Lorgar intended Guilliman to be assassinated. His "unmasking" conversation with Guilliman - where they summon a daemon assassin directly onto his ship - makes that much clear. So it can't simply be just a personal goal of Kor Phaeron.

However, Erebus has other goals. At the end of the novel, he considers his missions accomplished. His ritual is complete, and the Ultramarines are crippled.

Arguably so. Until it's expanded upon further, it's hard to say they "crippled" the Ultramarines. They dealt a severe blow (which isn't too hard, when you stab a trusting ally in the back..) to them, surely. But it clearly didn't stop them from reaching Terra - albeit delayed - to assist the Dark Angels and Space Wolves; and later being the "police force" of the Imperium, during The Scouring. It was heavily hinted at, that the three Legions imminent arrival is what pressured Horus to the action that ultimately cost him his life, after all. So all things considered, I wouldn't really say the Word Bearers achieved much more than revealing their true nature to a brother Legion they despised, and taking some personal satisfaction at their temporary "fall".

I suppose to me, it just smacks of an Abaddon quality Black Crusade. The Chaos forces claim a "victory" of sorts, for something that changed very little.

For him that is enough, and was all that mattered. He leaves the world behind, having fulfilled his mission given to him by Lorgar. This indicates, especially with Lorgar hismelf being absent and pursuing other objectives at a nearby location, that the total destruction really was not a very crucial objective for the Word Bearers. It was for Kor Phaeron. This was his battle. But it was not for Lorgar or the Word Bearers.

Total destruction? Probably not. They did, however, leave an enemy Primarch alive, and in a position to rally his forces over the coming years. All while preparing to combat the possible traitor forces they'd encounter, hence the Codex Astartes. It just doesn't seem all that well thought out to me. Perhaps they genuinely thought they dealt a far more serious blow, than they really did.