Did the Ultramarines lost at Calth? *Spoilers for Know No Fear*

[Lord_Crull]

It's pretty clear in the novel, that Lorgar intended Guilliman to be assassinated. His "unmasking" conversation with Guilliman - where they summon a daemon assassin directly onto his ship - makes that much clear. So it can't simply be just a personal goal of Kor Phaeron.

It is pointed out in the novel that they have a much greater goal than killing Guilliman.

"Calth is his operation, far more than it is Lorgar’s. Kor Phaeron has planned this for his primarch meticulously, and executed it with the aid of Erebus. The punishment and annihilation of the XIII is its principal aim; the humiliation and execution of the wretched Roboute Guilliman. But it is also an advancement, another step on the spiral path of the Great Ritual. It will allow their beloved primarch to progress.

Sorot Tchure is aware of his commander’s burden. There is no room for failure. There is a priceless and vital military objective to be won, but even that pales into nothing beside the greater intent."

Noted the bolded. At the end of the battle Erebus notes the true nature of the overall Word Bearer plan and is hardly concerned at all that they failed in killing Guilliman.

Arguably so. Until it's expanded upon further, it's hard to say they "crippled" the Ultramarines. They dealt a severe blow (which isn't too hard, when you stab a trusting ally in the back..) to them, surely. But it clearly didn't stop them from reaching Terra - albeit delayed - to assist the Dark Angels and Space Wolves; and later being the "police force" of the Imperium, during The Scouring. It was heavily hinted at, that the three Legions imminent arrival is what pressured Horus to the action that ultimately cost him his life, after all. So all things considered, I wouldn't really say the Word Bearers achieved much more than revealing their true nature to a brother Legion they despised, and taking some personal satisfaction at their temporary "fall".

I suppose to me, it just smacks of an Abaddon quality Black Crusade. The Chaos forces claim a "victory" of sorts, for something that changed very little.

The warp storm cut off the Ultramarines for years, leaving them unable to intervene or help at all until the very end...which is exactly what Horus wanted. But then again the preivous fluff you reference had the Ultramarines being attacked at the end of the Heresy, not at the beginning.

Total destruction? Probably not. They did, however, leave an enemy Primarch alive, and in a position to rally his forces over the coming years. All while preparing to combat the possible traitor forces they'd encounter, hence the Codex Astartes. It just doesn't seem all that well thought out to me. Perhaps they genuinely thought they dealt a far more serious blow, than they really did.

4/5ths of the Ultramarine fleet was gone along with at least a hundred thousand dead Ultramarines. In addition Lorgar and Angron's forces are also operating in Ultramar. They sucessfully completed their goals of putting a warp storm in place and caging Guilliman. They never intended to destroy him.

[Israfael]

Everything I said still stands. No reasonable mind - especially as advanced as a Primarch should be - could possibly think that putting the Ultramarines in a temporary timeout, could be a good idea. Regardless of if their "plans" were realized, they make little tactical sense. If you possess overwhelming force (ala Word Bearers and World Eaters) you destroy your enemy completely. You don't banish them to the corner of the sandbox, and pray they don't rally.

All they did was temporarily slow them, and put them in a position to inherit the Imperium later on.

[Lord_Crull]

Everything I said still stands..

It really does'nt. I have already pointed out quotes that say otherwise.

No reasonable mind - especially as advanced as a Primarch should be - could possibly think that putting the Ultramarines in a temporary timeout, could be a good idea.

If the Ultramarines cannot interfere...then they cannot interfere. If the Ultramarines have 4/5ths of their fleet destroyed while warp storms ravenge Ultramar, they they cannot interfere with the Warmaster's plans. The Word Bearers came to knock the Ultramarines out of the war for at least some time. They suceeded. For at least two years, and probably longer, the Ultramarines were unable to intervene, allowing the traitors to run rampant over the Imperium and reach Terra.

Regardless of if their "plans" were realized, they make little tactical sense. If you possess overwhelming force (ala Word Bearers and World Eaters) you destroy your enemy completely. You don't banish them to the corner of the sandbox, and pray they don't rally.

Contrary to popular belief, victory does not nessecarily mean ''KILL EVERYTHING IN SIGHT!'' if you can deny the enemy's warmaking capacity then that's just as good. If you can take out their means of fighting, by destroying their ships, wrecking their supply lines, etc, etc, then that's all good.

[Londinium]

In that instance they aren't breaking one of the precepts of the Adeptus Astartes. They were working together to destroy a foe that, Chapter against Legion, they were individually weaker than. That sort of thing is exactly what's supposed to happen.

The point is not the fact that they're working together but the fact that pretty much the entire Primogenitor force arrives there and acts in concert to rid Tsalgualsa of the Night Lords. It's not two or three chapters working together, it's a couple dozen at least which needs a load of logistical work and presupposes that the Ultramarines have brought them all together. It's essentially acting like a Legion which was what the Codex was supposed to stop, and if the Ultramarines have the influence to do it that time, perhaps they can do it again....

[Lord_Crull]

The point is not the fact that they're working together but the fact that pretty much the entire Primogenitor force arrives there and acts in concert to rid Tsalgualsa of the Night Lords. It's not two or three chapters working together, it's a couple dozen at least which needs a load of logistical work and presupposes that the Ultramarines have brought them all together. It's essentially acting like a Legion which was what the Codex was supposed to stop, and if the Ultramarines have the influence to do it that time, perhaps they can do it again....

We have many examples in prior fluff of more than a few dozen chapters working together. the Blood Angels for example, And I very much doubt a bunch of sucessors working with their parent Legion automatically means that they would all go traitor at the drop of a hat.

[Israfael]

It really does'nt. I have already pointed out quotes that say otherwise.

How do you figure, exactly? Your quotes claim that they had no intention to kill Guilliman, or his Legion. While the Legion part is true, arguably; it was absolutely a goal of both Lorgar- and Kor Phaeron- to kill Guilliman. They tried to assassinate him, and failed. Them claiming that it doesn't matter in the long run, changes nothing about their intent.

If the Ultramarines cannot interfere...then they cannot interfere.

Except they do. Horus loses the war in the end, thanks to this brilliant "trap him and his Legion" strategy. They didn't do nearly enough damage to cripple the Ultramarines indefinitely, which makes them careless. They underestimated the Ultramarines, clearly.

If the Ultramarines have 4/5ths of their fleet destroyed while warp storms ravenge Ultramar, they they cannot interfere with the Warmaster's plans. The Word Bearers came to knock the Ultramarines out of the war for at least some time. They suceeded. For at least two years, and probably longer, the Ultramarines were unable to intervene, allowing the traitors to run rampant over the Imperium and reach Terra.

Which matters little. The "prize", as it were, Terra - and the Emperor - were denied them, thanks to their strategy.

Contrary to popular belief, victory does not nessecarily mean ''KILL EVERYTHING IN SIGHT!'' if you can deny the enemy's warmaking capacity then that's just as good. If you can take out their means of fighting, by destroying their ships, wrecking their supply lines, etc, etc, then that's all good.

Please don't be flippant. It makes for a boring conversation.

It is a solid plan, in the short-term. Leaving an enemy alive, and alone, to possibly rebuild and rally - is comically foolish. Lorgar failed War 101.

[Lord_Crull]

How do you figure, exactly? Your quotes claim that they had no intention to kill Guilliman, or his Legion. While the Legion part is true, arguably; it was absolutely a goal of both Lorgar- and Kor Phaeron- to kill Guilliman. They tried to assassinate him, and failed. Them claiming that it doesn't matter in the long run, changes nothing about their intent.

Where does it say that Lorgar wanted to kill Guilliman? And yes, I already pointed out that Kor Phaeron wanted to kill Guilliman, but that was not the overall objective, as my quotes pointed out.

Except they do. Horus loses the war in the end, thanks to this brilliant "trap him and his Legion" strategy. They didn't do nearly enough damage to cripple the Ultramarines indefinitely, which makes them careless. They underestimated the Ultramarines, clearly.

If they had not done that blow, then the full strength 250,000 man Ultramarine Legion would have been able to intefere. You could rationalize the Ultramarines playing a part on Horus'as defeat yes, but they were one of many Legions and they were unable to interfere for a long time.

But againm, you reference prior fluff which had the Ultramarines largely untouched. In this version 4/5ths of the Ultramarines is destroyed with over a hundred thousand Ultramarines are dead and the rest of Ultramar is still under attack. That part is important, they're still fighting on Ultramar.

Which matters little. The "prize", as it were, Terra - and the Emperor - were denied them, thanks to their strategy.

At the moment, there is no fighting on Terra. Terra is seven years in the future. What is currently important is the rest of the Imperium. Horus is seizing worlds. Horus is seizing supplies and killing loyalist. Horus can make no march on Terra without clearing the path first.

It is a solid plan, in the short-term. Leaving an enemy alive, and alone, to possibly rebuild and rally - is comically foolish. Lorgar failed War 101.

...Do you understand War 101? If that enemy infastructure cannot recover in time to stop you then that then it a very valid tactic. Otherwise according to you any nation in the history of military warfare that did not completely annhilate their enemies ''failed War 101''. I mean, do you understand it's perfectly possible to take an enemy out without utterly annhilating him?

If the unmolested enemy is allowed to attack you at full strength without doing anything to take him out, then that is failing war 101.

[Wyrmwood]

The explosion on the bridge of Guilliman's flagship was most likely supposed to demoralise the other Ultramarines rather than outright kill Guilliman. Lorgar knows the capabilities of his own body, as would the Chaos Gods. Something like that wouldn't kill a Primarch, but it worked in temporarily crippling the legion.

[Israfael]

The explosion on the bridge of Guilliman's flagship was most likely supposed to demoralise the other Ultramarines rather than outright kill Guilliman. Lorgar knows the capabilities of his own body, as would the Chaos Gods. Something like that wouldn't kill a Primarch, but it worked in temporarily crippling the legion.

That might be true, yeah. It's impossible to say for certain. His words to Guilliman spoke of a grim finality to me, though. I got the distinct impression the blast was an assassination attempt.

Where does it say that Lorgar wanted to kill Guilliman? And yes, I already pointed out that Kor Phaeron wanted to kill Guilliman, but that was not the overall objective, as my quotes pointed out.

See Wyrmwood's comment. We're discussing when Lorgar was talking to his brother when the blast went off.

If they had not done that blow, then the full strength 250,000 man Ultramarine Legion would have been able to intefere. You could rationalize the Ultramarines playing a part on Horus'as defeat yes, but they were one of many Legions and they were unable to interfere for a long time.

They wouldn't have been able to interfere at all, had they been dealt with properly. That's my point. It was a sound move, early on, to cripple them. Not finishing them though was an act of extreme hubris.

But againm, you reference prior fluff which had the Ultramarines largely untouched. In this version 4/5ths of the Ultramarines is destroyed with over a hundred thousand Ultramarines are dead and the rest of Ultramar is still under attack. That part is important, they're still fighting on Ultramar.

I'm not referencing older fluff. Until they release a retcon- the Ultramarines, alongside the Wolves and Angels force Horus' hand. And he was outplayed by the Emperor. The bloody-nose the Ultramarines received wasn't enough to change this.

At the moment, there is no fighting on Terra. Terra is seven years in the future. What is currently important is the rest of the Imperium. Horus is seizing worlds. Horus is seizing supplies and killing loyalist. Horus can make no march on Terra without clearing the path first.

Which makes my case for me. If you are fully aware that you will need a significant amount of time to achieve your goals, why leave a possible threat alive? It makes little sense, aside from the Word Bearers wanting to revel in the sorrow of the Ultramarines, and therefore, keep them alive. Which again, would be hubris.

..Do you understand War 101? If that enemy infastructure cannot recover in time to stop you then that then it a very valid tactic. Otherwise according to you any nation in the history of military warfare that did not completely annhilate their enemies ''failed War 101''. I mean, do you understand it's perfectly possible to take an enemy out without utterly annhilating him?

Theory-crafting can be fun- but unfortunately for your argument, we know the actual outcome of the long-war, Crull. I've already stated their initial strike to cripple was sound. Not finishing a weakened foe, however, is beyond stupidity.

If the unmolested enemy is allowed to attack you at full strength without doing anything to take him out, then that is failing war 101.

You're completely missing my point, methinks.

[Lord_Crull]

That might be true, yeah. It's impossible to say for certain. His words to Guilliman spoke of a grim finality to me, though. I got the distinct impression the blast was an assassination attempt.

Aurelian reveals that he had no expectation of killing Guilliman.

See Wyrmwood's comment. We're discussing when Lorgar was talking to his brother when the blast went off.

And it still does not change my point.

They wouldn't have been able to interfere at all, had they been dealt with properly. That's my point. It was a sound move, early on, to cripple them. Not finishing them though was an act of extreme hubris.

And why would not finishing them off be an act of extreme hurbis? Again, they're still fighting and Horus has dispatched Lorgar and Angron to help with the warp storm.

I'm not referencing older fluff. Until they release a retcon- the Ultramarines, alongside the Wolves and Angels force Horus' hand. And he was outplayed by the Emperor. The bloody-nose the Ultramarines received wasn't enough to change this.

But it still doesn't change the fact that preventing them for doing anything for seven years was a militarily sound move.

Which makes my case for me.

How so?

If you are fully aware that you will need a significant amount of time to achieve your goals, why leave a possible threat alive? It makes little sense, aside from the Word Bearers wanting to revel in the sorrow of the Ultramarines, and therefore, keep them alive. Which again, would be hubris.

If a living threat's miltiary infastructure is destroyed, then they can't interfere. Terra again, was not he immdiete goal, you had seven more years of fighting.

Theory-crafting can be fun- but unfortunately for your argument, we know the actual outcome of the long-war, Crull. I've already stated their initial strike to cripple was sound. Not finishing a weakened foe, however, is beyond stupidity.

How it is beyond stupidty? Do you grasp the concept that in war you don't need to gill everything? For the Word Bearer's purposes they suceeded. The Ultramarines coming back at the very end of the Heresy was irrelvant.

You're completely missing my point, methinks.

Pot. Kettle. Black

Actually I think I'm done with this, the debate has turned circular and more than a little heated. I'm ending this now before it get's worse.