Stand and shoot question

[gorblud]

Hey,

when declaring a stand and shoot reaction there is only the -1 modifier for standing and shooting right? No long range because the archers are assumed to wait for the right moment to shoot?

But does that count as firing at close range, would wood elf glade bows get +1 str for shooting at close range?

[Artiee]

Nope.. its -1 for SnS and if the target is over half distance, then -1 for long range. The rule is for, if the charging unit is outside the maximum they will shoot when the charging unit is within max range. If you have 1 guy in the unit that has a shorting range, then they will wait until he can shoot. So it may bring the rest into close range.

[T10]

If you have 1 guy in the unit that has a shorting range, then they will wait until he can shoot. So it may bring the rest into close range.

This appears to be a slight bastardization of a generally accepted easter egg in the S&S rules. What appears to be accepted is that if the shortest-range S&S attack is out of range, the whole unit fires "as if" the enemy was at the range of that attack (e.g. 12" if the shortest range weapon is a pistol), regardless of the current actual range for each model.

This is based on a mix of "edition hangover" (this was how S&S was clairfied to work in 7th edition) that seems to fit nicely with the rules for S&S and out-of-range shots. I don't quite agree, though.

I would like to point out (again) that this easter egg does not come into play unless the whole unit is out of range of the enemy:

p. 17: "A Stand and Shoot reaction can be declared against an enemy that starts its charge outside the firing unit's maximum range - the shooting is resolved normally assuming the enemy is just within maximum range of the shooting unit's shortest-ranged weapon. If the charge fails, for whatever reason, we assume that the chargers closed to within the weapons' maximum range before being driven off."

This means that if a unit of handgunners (range 24") that includes a model with a pistol (range 12") that attempts to shoot at a unit of chargers 18" away, then this is an S&S made agains a unit within reach of the unit's maximum range and no special conditions apply. They get to shoot with all their hand guns, but the pistol is out of range. Since the S&S is resolved as normal shooting (see p. 17), notice that out-of-range weapons do not get to shoot (see We Can't All Fire! p. 39).

However, if the chargers start 25" away, then the special conditions for shorter-ranged weapons suddenly apply! All the models get to shoot and the range is treated as being just within 12".

Personally, though, I think GW meant for us to resolve shooting on a model-by-model basis (just like, you know, normal shooting): Determine forward arc and line of sight as normal, but if the weapon is out of range the target is assumed to be just within maximum range anyway.

-T10

[gorblud]

Oh, thats just weird, then it would be good to bring a shooting weapon with shorter range than the rest of the unit

[Quaki]

This means that if a unit of handgunners (range 24") that includes a model with a pistol (range 12") that attempts to shoot at a unit of chargers 18" away, then this is an S&S made agains a unit within reach of the unit's maximum range and no special conditions apply. They get to shoot with all their hand guns, but the pistol is out of range. Since the S&S is resolved as normal shooting (see p. 17), notice that out-of-range weapons do not get to shoot (see We Can't All Fire! p. 39).

I gotta disagree, in this case because of the guy with pistol, handgunners maximum range is 12 inches, not 24. Rules clearly state that shooting is resolved normally no sooner then when enemy is just within range of the whole unit's shortest weapon.
Then we got another problem - people assuming that if the pistol guy is 12 inches away then it's 12 inches (and short distance) for whole unit including second rank which usually is not correct but almost everyone plays it this way...

[T10]

I gotta disagree, in this case because of the guy with pistol, handgunners maximum range is 12 inches, not 24.

No, the maximum range is the best range, not the shortest range: Models in a unit that have a 24" range can shoot at models 24" away, even if other models in the unit have a 12" range and cannot reach the same target. This applies to normal shooting, and normal shooting also applies to Stand & Shoot reactions.

-T10

[calnen]

Oh, thats just weird, then it would be good to bring a shooting weapon with shorter range than the rest of the unit

Yes, basically. This is why you see a lot of Dwarf Thunderer units at tournies with a champion with pistol thrown in. He can't shoot most of the time, but makes the stand & shoot reaction of the unit a lot more effective.

[T10]

Yes, basically. This is why you see a lot of Dwarf Thunderer units at tournies with a champion with pistol thrown in. He can't shoot most of the time, but makes the stand & shoot reaction of the unit a lot more effective.

Handy for those times the enemy starts more than 24" away. Oh, I forgot: Nobody likes that part of the rules.

-T10

[Artinam]

I don't get the last statement T10. Is it the fact that Stand and shoot will happen regardless if the chargers ever get into range?

[T10]

No, it's becaused the perceived benefit of having a pistol in the unit of handgunners ("we get to shoot our handguns as if the enemy was 12" away!") is dependent on the chargers starting outside of 24".

-T10

[Quaki]

Oh, I got your point. Well, the problem is absence of definition for "maximum range" - being it 24 as the best range in the unit or 12 inches as maximum range for pistol. I'm gonna point that out to my friend who's a referee at our GTs.

[T10]

You will find that the unit is capable of making one or more shooting attacks at a target up to 24" away, hence the maximum range of the unit is 24".

-T10

[Abetorius]

Is there any unit that can charge more then 24", to make this an issue? I thought the longest charge possible was 22", and that is for flyers (10" + 2D6 of 6s). Please correct me if I am wrong.

Also I dont think it was the intent of the game designers for 24" shooters to not get the -1 penalty for long range just because they have a guy with a 12" pistol in the unit. They will fire their weapons as soon as they see the charge coming, as will the guy with the pistol. (and his pistol will have just enough range to reach the target)

[Toshiro]

Yeah, I pretty much play it as Abetorius said, use long range on all models unless the charging unit starts within short range.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Is there any unit that can charge more then 24", to make this an issue?

There are some other, shorter ranged weapons in use sometimes. A unit of Pistoliers for example has a range of 12" and could include a champion with a repeater pistol (8").

However, that is not the salient point. If T10 is correct, those Dwarfs with a pistol-toting hero would suffer the long range modifier if they are charged by anyone more than 12" away.

Also I dont think it was the intent of the game designers for 24" shooters to not get the -1 penalty for long range just because they have a guy with a 12" pistol in the unit. They will fire their weapons as soon as they see the charge coming, as will the guy with the pistol. (and his pistol will have just enough range to reach the target)

I think it was the intent of the designers to make the inclusion of a champion somewhat useful. He's the noncom, the unit leader after all. They're going to fire at his mark, and a pistol obviously has a shorter reach.

[dms505]

It really turned me off to the whole idea of Wood elves. There is basically no way they can stand and shoot if the charge has to come from 24-30"+. To me the new rule doesn't make sense for longer ranged weapons. I liked it when it used to be half the distance.

[T10]

It really turned me off to the whole idea of Wood elves. There is basically no way they can stand and shoot if the charge has to come from 24-30"+. To me the new rule doesn't make sense for longer ranged weapons. I liked it when it used to be half the distance.

Chillax! You are allowed to make a S&S reaction if the chargers start more than their Movement in inches away, e.g. 3" for a unit of Dwarf Warriors, or 7" for a unit of Chaos Knights.

This discussion revolves around the issue of squeezing a benefit out of having a short-range missile weapon in the unit, i.e. the ability to treat shooting that is actually at long range (-1 to hit) as short range (+0 to hit). It has nothing to do with the unit's ability to make an S&S reaction.

-T10

[T10]

If T10 is correct, those Dwarfs with a pistol-toting hero would suffer the long range modifier if they are charged by anyone more than 12" away.

No. What I am saying is that under normal circumstances range is worked out for each model individually, and models that are out of range do not get to shoot! That's the actual rules for shooting right there.

The rules offer up an exception that allows out-of-range weapons to shoot, but that is dependent on a unit-wide consideration: That the enemy starts outside the maximum range of the unit.

I think it's a stupidly phrased rule that attempts to deal with mixed capabilities in a unit but only gets it all confused.

[Artinam]

Thanks for the clarification. I understand completely now.