Aura of Dark Majesty

[Jagosaja]

Sorry if this has been asked before.

So, I have a Vampire with Aura of Dark Majesty, and he is close to two enemy units, one of which has an enemy general. So, when the other one takes a Ld test, and takes generals Ld, does it take just his Ld -1 or his Ld -2? This happened in a game and I argued that it is -2 since the general is in range of the Aure so his Ld is deducted by 1, and when he passes his Ld onto the other unit, that value is also deducted by 1 since the other unit is also in the range of Aura, since Aura affects all units in range.

Which one is right?

[Algovil]

Hm, tricky this one interesting to see what people thinks. If a unit has negative modifier to leadership, that should apply after for example Inspiring Presence. But if the leadership stat value itself is changed, then Inspiring Presence value would overide this value, in this example -1 to general which he pass.

[NitrosOkay]

The general has -1 leadership. The other unit has minus -1 leadership. The general passes on his leadership -1 to the other unit. The leadership of the other unit (which is -1) is ignored. You don't get to apply the effect twice, that's just silly.

[Lord Inquisitor]

There's a good RAW argument that is pretty entertaining. NitrosOkay, what you say seems sensible but if the unit were in range of AoDM and the general wasn't, you'd switch in the general's Ld and then -1 penalty would apply, right?

However I think we can safely say even if it does work it is blatantly an unintended loophole. The penalty should only apply to each unit in range once.

[AntaresCD]

Actually that is how it works NitrosOkay. The General's current Leadership is what is passed in his Inspiring Presence. So if that is still higher (with the -1 even) then the other unit's Leadership, then you may choose to (Insipiring Presence is always optional, but there are few reasons to not use it if it's better) use it as the unit's Leadership. Then the unit's Leadership is reduced by one since it has the penalty too.

Relevant FAQ Entries:
Example of Inspiring Presence passing the General's current Leadership:
"Q: If the General is in a unit with the Standard of Discipline
will he gain +1 Leadership and then be able to pass it onto his unit
(because he is in it) as well as other units in range of the Inspiring
Presence special rule? (Reference)
A: Yes."

How unit's using the General's Leadership are affected by Leadership modifiers:
"Q: If a unit taking a Leadership test has a modifier to its
Leadership, will this modifier still apply if the unit uses the generals
Leadership, because of the Inspiring Presence special rule for
example? (p10)
A: Yes."

"Q. If an enemy unit is affected by the Doom and Darkness spell,
and the unit is within the general’s Inspiring Presence radius, does
the Leadership value conferred by Inspiring Presence suffer the
modifier even if the General is not affected? (Reference)
A: Yes."

Remember that the Inspiring Presence rule (on BRB page 107) says they may use the General's leadership instead of their own, not his unmodified Leadership instead of their own.

[Algovil]

Can someone please quote the exact wording for the rule, I have the VC book but not here.

[AntaresCD]

I don't have the book with me either, but if I remember correctly it's a -1 to Leadership to all units within x inches of the model with the rule.

Which means in the situation above you have:

General's unit and the other unit both are in range. So both unit's are hit by it. General's Leadership is 1 lower and that's what he passes around in his bubble. Whether or not the other unit uses his IP Leadership in place of their own, they still have the -1 to their Leadership. Their Leadership can be either what is passed by the General with his IP or their own best value in the unit, controlling player's choice.

The fact that the General is having is Leadership debuffed too doesn't exempt a unit from their own debuffs. In fact, it makes the General a prime target for leadership debuffs in a low Leadership army that relies on a high leadership General's IP.

[Jagosaja]

Quote from the VC book, page 61, Aura of Dark Majesty:

All enemy units within 6" of one or more Vampires with the Aura of Dark Majesty suffer a -1 penalty to their Leadership. This penalty is cumulative with any other modifiers.

I agree with AntaresCD and I have interpreted the rules in that way. It is what the rules say, and in fact I believe they are meant to be played like that. The rules are not applied twice, only once per each unit. The only part that may be debatable is if "their Leadership" regards only their basic Leadership or Leadership they use.

[AntaresCD]

The way Inspiring Presence works is basically you have another choice for the best leadership value of a unit. Instead of it just being the best value of all the models in the unit it is now that or the General's current leadership, if you're in the bubble. The rules in the BRB (as clarified by the FAQ) say that you may use the general's leadership instead of the unit's normal leadership. Other FAQS make it pretty clear how that works.

It breaks down to the following example:
-General has Leadership 9 and is in unit A.
-Unit B has Leadership 8.
-Unit B is now within 12" (or 18" if the Gneneral is a Large Target) so now has the option of being Leadership 9.
-General recieves a +1 to Leadership (from whatever source) and is now Leadership 10.
-Unit B is now either Leadership 8 or 10 (remember IP is optional).
-General's Leadership is now reduced by 3 (so cummulative to -2 from base) and is now 7.
-Unit B now is leadership 8 or 7.
-Unit B is hit by a -1 to Leadership and their Leadership is now either 7 or 6.

It doesn't matter where the debuffs come from or if it's hitting the General's unit too. The order that things are applied in (while it does seem like double dipping, honestly) are pretty clear. The General transfers to his bubble, whatever his current Leadership is. This is why the +1 Leadership banner is attractive for a unit that you plan to transport your General in. The IP choice let's you use the General's current Leadership as the "best value" in the unit. Modifiers to the leadership of the unit take effect on the "best value."

To be clear, the General's current leadership may be used in place of the unit's normal leadership if they are in his bubble. It's as if he was in the unit when you are determining what the best value in the unit is. Modifiers are applied as normal to the unit's leadership (be it their "normal" leadership or what was swapped in due to IP).

[Algovil]

Which would give the effect of -2 to the Leadership in total in the case described by OP, sounds reasonable.

[CreativeNameToStandOut]

I can see both ways and I don't think there is a concise answer but if I had to lean one way I would say no to the -2 and here's my reason why, though not very strong reasonemphasis mine)
pg. 61 of the VC book says: "All enemy units within 6" of one or more Vampires with the Aura of Dark Majesty suffer a -1 penalty to THEIR leadership."
pg. 107 of the main rulebook says "all friendly units within 12" USE his (the general) leadership INSTEAD OF THEIR OWN."
So because the rule doesn't specifically say that the general's leadership BECOMES the units leadership they just USE his; and that the -1 is specifically to the THEIR leadership then no -2. It's real nitpick on the wording but that's the best I can do. So take it or leave it...

[Lord Inquisitor]

Quote from the VC book, page 61, Aura of Dark Majesty:

All enemy units within 6" of one or more Vampires with the Aura of Dark Majesty suffer a -1 penalty to their Leadership. This penalty is cumulative with any other modifiers.

I agree with AntaresCD and I have interpreted the rules in that way. It is what the rules say, and in fact I believe they are meant to be played like that. The rules are not applied twice, only once per each unit. The only part that may be debatable is if "their Leadership" regards only their basic Leadership or Leadership they use.

Never in a million years is this intended by the designers. There's no way it was even considered. Since these sorts of items/powes have been around for ages, the daemon great icon of -2 Ld for example but this has as far as I know not been suggested until recently and certainly not addressed in book or FAQ, it's pretty safe to say it is a loophole at best.

[T10]

Also: This issue has been discussed previously.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...ip-and-effects

-T10

[Jagosaja]

Well, by checking that thread, no solution has been reached, some people claim it goes one way, some that it goes another way. Also, the penalty is not applied twice, it is applied once per unit. The fact that the general has his Ld reduced by 1, due to Aura, does not obstruct the unit benefiting from Inspiring Presence to be affected by Aura itself. It is affected once, so the fact that the general has been affected as well does not really matter when taking into account how many times has the unit been affected.

And is still believe it is intended, just like rallying General or BSB first to use their abilities for further rallying of other units - it can go other way around too, so reduce the Ld of general to have further benefit when reducing Ld of other units.

[AntaresCD]

I agree that this may not be what was intended, and even if it was, it's double dipping. It is though the way the rules appear to be written. There are arguments on each side and really domes down to, like you pointed out in the older thread T10, when the General's Leadership is substituted in, either before the other unit's modifications or after. I've always understood it as before, based on the FAQ conventions, and other people take it as after (also justifiable and honestly, less of a rule Easter Egg).

So Jagosaja, like all other rule cases where there are understandable points to each side, it's just going to be up to your local group to see what your consensus is. Present both sides before the next game and see what you all agree on.

[Smogg]

"This penalty is cumulative with any other modifiers." - this could also be read as the penalty is not cumulative with itself, but only with other modifiers. Just a thought.

[Lord Inquisitor]

I agree that this may not be what was intended, and even if it was, it's double dipping. It is though the way the rules appear to be written. There are arguments on each side and really domes down to, like you pointed out in the older thread T10, when the General's Leadership is substituted in, either before the other unit's modifications or after. I've always understood it as before, based on the FAQ conventions, and other people take it as after (also justifiable and honestly, less of a rule Easter Egg).

Consider the following scenarios.

Unit A is Ld 7 and the General is Ld 9. They are up against a vampire with AoDM.

Lets say Unit A is in range of AoDM, the General is not, but the General can pass his Ld to unit A. What Ld does unit A test on?
Lets say General is in range of AoDM and can pass his Ld onto unit A, which is NOT in range of AoDM. What Ld does unit A test on?

From the FAQs I would say in both cases it is 8, right?

[AntaresCD]

Consider the following scenarios.

Unit A is Ld 7 and the General is Ld 9. They are up against a vampire with AoDM.

Lets say Unit A is in range of AoDM, the General is not, but the General can pass his Ld to unit A. What Ld does unit A test on?
Lets say General is in range of AoDM and can pass his Ld onto unit A, which is NOT in range of AoDM. What Ld does unit A test on?

From the FAQs I would say in both cases it is 8, right?

Yeah in the first case unit A uses the General's Leadership of 9 which then gets reduced to 8 by AoDM and in the second case they use the General's Leadership which was reduced to 8 by AoDM before being passed into the bubble. Both follow the FAQ conventions clearly. The question is what happens when both circumstances are combined.

The way those two circumstances play out is why I've always been under the impression that combining both circumstances where both are in range of AoDM you have the General's Leadership is reduced, so he passes Leadership 8 into his IP bubble, which Unit A uses, which is then reduced to 7 because they are affected by AoDM.

The first circumstance establishes that modifiers to a unit's Leadership take affect after the Leadership swap from IP. The second circumstance establishes that the Leadership put into the IP bubble is the General's Leadership after any modifiers to it's Leadership. Put both together and you get the logic I've been following when you have AoDM on both at once: General's IP bubble is 1 lower since they have a -1 and then the other unit is at -1 from their Leadership, which happens to be the value they took from IP.

The thing that makes people think twice about this is because both the General and the other unit are receiving the penalty from the same source. What about if you had two vamps with AoDM and the General was in one's radius and the other unit was in the other's and still in range of IP; would it then still cause issues? What about if the General had a penalty (or bonus) to Leadership from one source, like a spell and the other unit had a penalty from something else, it could be AoDM (or something else)? That is already covered by the FAQs as we have discussed. Work through these choices in reverse order now and give it a thought. At what point is it no longer allowed by the rules? Just because the penalty, in this case, is from the same source for both the General and the other unit doesn't invalidate that they both are penalized. It just highlights that IP can be manipulated, which is a design issue, in my opinion, much like being able to use the 1" rule to block movement that logically shouldn't be, but that's the way the rules are...

[NitrosOkay]

I have to agree by the rules it will be a -2.

Can't imagine that was the intent of the ability though.