Strongest non-BRB Lore

[panic_puppet]

Its a toss up...Skaven magic is strong, but Dark Elf magic is a shade behind but comes with power of darkness... tricky. I think Dark Elves -just- edge it on the grounds of Dark Magic being so synergistic with the rest of the DE army and magic phase.

[Maoriboy007]

Why is the power of Gateway always downplayed? The odds are one in 12 castings, which might seem like long odds, but thats not taking into account infernal puppet, which pretty much breaks the spell. With puppet , Gateway can be cast with 6 dice every phase either getting IF or making the spell damn near impossible to dispel, so its very conceivable to cast the spell 5-6 times per game. With the odds thats one whole unit characters and all, regardless of cost or protection, removed every two or three games quite possibly winning the game outright, which is pretty damned good IMO, and even without the 11+ roll the average 7 str 7 hits is nothing to sneer at.

I personally love the Ogre lore, it craps on the Nehekharan lore, which is quite frankly pants. The Great Maw is well suited to buffing the already brutal ogres, yes a lot of the spells are similar to other lores, however you get them all in the one lore, at pretty reasonable casting values on one of the Toughest casters in the game. I also like the 6th spell, its not completely broken like the BRB ones, it could be a little cheaper, but I think its damage potetial is exactly what the other big spells should be.

Beasts it very good, the signature spell is great and Curse of Anreheir is way underrated, it has the potetial to be a damage spell and is a hex in the bargain, a great twofer and as almost as good as flame cage at holding up units.

Nehekhara shouldn't be on the list, its overcosted short ranged and really unsuited to the army its attached to, its a real blow to have to take it on the TK army. Makes a sub standard army into an average army. Its like peewee herman change into clark kent.

Vampires is a great lore, it doesn't have the raw power of some lores , but its very sublte and meshes so well with the army that the difference is mostly acedmic.

In the right hands Dark Magic can be downright brutal, very similar to Ogres that it has similar effects in the one lore.PoD makes it downright terrifying.

I hear bad things about the skaven and Nurgle lores and they definitly sound like contenders , but I've only faced them once or twice not enough to form an opinion.

[decker_cky]

If we were to look at the potence of individual spells then Skaven Magic would be a contender of course, while all the Daemon Lores still have 7th Ed casting values making for example Plaguewind a bit too much of a bargain.

For individual spells, I think Plague wind easily takes the cake in an 8th edition meta. 13+ for toughness test or wound, and summon a sizeable unit from it? With the new plastic nurglings, this should get a lot more love.

[Phazael]

Rot Glorious Rot really beats the hell out of MSU/MMU lists by chewing up their chaffe, if not their entire army. Next to Buboes, its the spell I fear most in that lore, because if I let it through all of a sudden my chaffe is gone and I have to face an entire wall of Nurgle warriors all at once.

Gateway is occasionally scary, but the rest of the lore is meh, especially once you get into close combat. A weak player will over react to it. A good player will ignore it and plow into combat. If you are a deathstar enthusiast, then you are going to be more scared of it, but my MMU armies really kind of just ignore gateway and focus on Pandamonium, which is the real army killer of that lore.

Bladewind is a snipe spell because of being able to select one target to attack, which can let you put stray wounds on support wizards or snipe out champions to set up the enemy characters later in the game. It is very powerful and crazy easy to cast.

Skaven lore just does not phase me much, since 13th is the only spell I actually fear and a lot of armies are essentially immune to it (Ogres, Bretts, ect) anyhow. Once you are in combat, it ceases to pose a threat.

[Askari]

Why is the power of Gateway always downplayed? The odds are one in 12 castings, which might seem like long odds, but thats not taking into account infernal puppet, which pretty much breaks the spell. With puppet , Gateway can be cast with 6 dice every phase either getting IF or making the spell damn near impossible to dispel, so its very conceivable to cast the spell 5-6 times per game. With the odds thats one whole unit characters and all, regardless of cost or protection, removed every two or three games quite possibly winning the game outright, which is pretty damned good IMO, and even without the 11+ roll the average 7 str 7 hits is nothing to sneer at.

Sure, Gateway deletes a unit every 1 in 12 times, but Dwellers and Final Transmutation deletes a third of a S4 unit every single time it's cast. With Dwellers in particular, you can also have Throne of Vines around to protect you from the downsides of 6-dicing every time as well. Purple Sun has a larger potential damage output, and Okkam's Mindrazor on the right unit will usually delete a unit as well. Even Flame Storm, from the much-disliked Lore of Fire, is more efficient at killing units T4 or less. Gateway is excellent when it works true, and is somewhat more versatile than some of the above, I just think auto-kill once in 12 times is considerably worse than 50% dead always.

[Jericho]

Think of it this way, 11/12 chance of not being all that much better than Flickering Fire. Overall it's nowhere near as good as the other "nuke" spells, which are in turn not as amazing as the Internet would have you believe.

It can be good for a few high strength hits against monsters or cav, but against big units or even monstrous cav that pack a lot of wounds, it's not that big of a deal. This isn't an MSU game anymore where you can cripple units easily by causing a half dozen wounds when you fail to roll S11-12.

Just sayin'.

[Maoriboy007]

Sure, Gateway deletes a unit every 1 in 12 times, but Dwellers and Final Transmutation deletes a third of a S4 unit every single time it's cast. With Dwellers in particular, you can also have Throne of Vines around to protect you from the downsides of 6-dicing every time as well. Purple Sun has a larger potential damage output, and Okkam's Mindrazor on the right unit will usually delete a unit as well. Even Flame Storm, from the much-disliked Lore of Fire, is more efficient at killing units T4 or less. Gateway is excellent when it works true, and is somewhat more versatile than some of the above, I just think auto-kill once in 12 times is considerably worse than 50% dead always.

Yeah, if we are talking about the BRB lores then Life would certainly rate higher, however generlly its safer for a Chaos wizard to 6 dice gateway than it is for another wizard to 6 dice the other lores with the exception of life with throne of vines active. Gateway does bypass tests and will autamatically kill the character without even a look out sir rule, so I can't see Gateway being passed off as particularly weak or unlikely to work.
I do have a problem with all the auto-kill spells anyway, (some people love 'em some people hate 'em, I'm in the latter category) and gateway certainly falls into that category but I would say technically Gateways potential damage output is higher as you can destroy 100% of the unit regardless of its resistance or value not 30% like most of the others.

Think of it this way, 11/12 chance of not being all that much better than Flickering Fire

which is itself a pretty decent spell, and you still come off better for the price increase than say the difference between a basic and boosted rule of burning iron, which is as good but costed much higher for much the same result.

Overall it's nowhere near as good as the other "nuke" spells

Which are std BRB lores anyway, but gateway isn't that far off and does have its upsides, you can't scatter it onto yourself , and it has a decent set range, and bypasses stat tests.

which are in turn not as amazing as the Internet would have you believe..

..as long as you play elves or chaos....

It can be good for a few high strength hits against monsters or cav, but against big units or even monstrous cav that pack a lot of wounds, it's not that big of a deal. This isn't an MSU game anymore where you can cripple units easily by causing a half dozen wounds when you fail to roll S11-12.

like any spell it depends on how many wounds you cause compared to what the spell cost you, if you cased 1o wounds with a purple sun and had your level 4 wizard sucked into the warp on turn 2 its probably not worth it, if your chaos wizard caused 7 wounds throughout the game lauging at miscasts the whole time before taking your opponants most valuable unit off the table characters and all well. Its not a bad spell and trying to pass off the unit remover as a complete rarity is a bit much IMO... just sayin

[club_death]

horde of minotaurs & doombull got gatewayed first turn - first encounter
other than that its been tame.
i picked vamps, good all round (minus those unit deleters, but i dont think magic should do that anyways)

[Munin]

While this is a hard choice Im gonna go with the Big Waaagh for previous mentioned reasons.

[DaemonReign]

For individual spells, I think Plague wind easily takes the cake in an 8th edition meta. 13+ for toughness test or wound, and summon a sizeable unit from it? With the new plastic nurglings, this should get a lot more love.

Yeah Casting value should be doubled on that one no doubt.

Daemon Lore of Nurgle is great all around actually. Especially if you concider the No1 "Signature" (I don't play it like that, but I know a lot of people do).

[DaemonReign]

I also almost agree with you - PoD is ridiculous, but I'm not sure it makes Lore of Dark Magic beat out Skaven magic, or even some of the 8th ed lores

PoD completely breaks the 12-dice cap. Last game I played vs DE was 10k and with 4 casters he would cast 4-5 spells at which point I had like 1DD left while he was still maxed out at 12PD.

I realize it's not as extreme in more normal looking metas, but still there's something to be said for getting many more attempts per phase (albeit if we look at individual spells there are certainly nasty spells in other Lores) because DE can simply dogpile you with stuff to dispel and if they are using Death too you might as well take a break and let them finnish the phase by themselves.. haha

[the_picto]

Yeah Casting value should be doubled on that one no doubt.

Daemon Lore of Nurgle is great all around actually. Especially if you concider the No1 "Signature" (I don't play it like that, but I know a lot of people do).

Isn't the lore of nurgle let down by having the choice of a 165pts lvl 1 herald or a 485pts or more (?) greater daemon?

[Harwammer]

technically Gateways potential damage output is higher as you can destroy 100% of the unit regardless of its resistance or value not 30% like most of the others.

Why compare the max potential of Gateway to a less than average cast of dwellers? You use the words 'technically' and 'potential damage output', so I'm going to be an unwanted pedant and point out that technically the potential damage output of dwellers is to kill every model in the unit too. I'm being slightly facetious here, but my point is it is unfair to compare a poor dwellers to a maxed out Gateway.

Perhaps it would be interesting to see the damage potential of the top 1/12th of dwellers compared to gateway, and then do a comparison for more average rolls. Off the top of my head you're as likely to kill both a S3 and S5 character in a single casting with dwellers (1/2*1/6=1/12) as you are with gateway (3/36=1/12). Yes, gateway will also take the rest of the unit off, whereas dwellers will only remove ~30-50% of the models in addition to the the two characters on that 1/12. However, in the remaining 11/12 times dwellers will likely be taking off far more than the 4 (vs T4) or 5 (vs T3) wounds (assuming no saves) that gateway will be doing.

[decker_cky]

Yeah Casting value should be doubled on that one no doubt.

Daemon Lore of Nurgle is great all around actually. Especially if you concider the No1 "Signature" (I don't play it like that, but I know a lot of people do).

Miasma isn't signature, but is effectively the same since it can be generated non-randomly (all wizards could know it).

Isn't the lore of nurgle let down by having the choice of a 165pts lvl 1 herald or a 485pts or more (?) greater daemon?

GUO is a great value IMO. L4 with nurgling infestation is a solid threat on its own, and a great support piece for the army overall (infestation isn't needed, but as a support piece, I think it's well worth adding).

Herald of nurgle is an expensive wizard, but it is a survivable character that's a great choice for BSB, and with the upgrade to L1 and a palanquin, it becomes a real threat in combat for if it gets off miasma.

[DaemonReign]

Isn't the lore of nurgle let down by having the choice of a 165pts lvl 1 herald or a 485pts or more (?) greater daemon?

On the one hand decker_cky describes one side of the coin rather well, on the other hand you're right. One of the definate weaknesses is the "many eggs in one basket" dilemma that comes with getting that Herald, the Magic Level, the Palanquin, the BSB, the Gift(s)... It's a lot of points, there's no denying. And the GUO is all right, overcosted but not on Prince-level of course, but if all you really want is a LvL4 then naturally it's pretty steep.. And you'll only get one for every two your average opponant can bring.

[Drasanil]

Really the ranging issues are the parts that bother me the most with Dark Magic.

I don't find the range issues to be that bad if you have the familiar, an extra 6 inches of range and the ability to shoot off spells while completely hidden is pretty sweet.

[Djekar]

While the focus familiar is really amazing, I've been using Dark with the Sacrificial Crutch recently which is one of the reasons that the range has been an issue. Also, I play a lot of Ogres/Lizards which means that any closer than about 24" could be called the "Danger Zone!".

[Lord Inquisitor]

I think the Lore of Hashut is a serious contender for strongest army book Lore.

[Askari]

While I wouldn't consider Tamurkhan an Army Book (not because I don't like it, but purely because it's FW, not GW, and seems more like a campaign book), the Lore of Hashut is obscene I agree.

[Maoriboy007]

Why compare the max potential of Gateway to a less than average cast of dwellers? You use the words 'technically' and 'potential damage output', so I'm going to be an unwanted pedant and point out that technically the potential damage output of dwellers is to kill every model in the unit too. I'm being slightly facetious here, but my point is it is unfair to compare a poor dwellers to a maxed out Gateway.

Perhaps it would be interesting to see the damage potential of the top 1/12th of dwellers compared to gateway, and then do a comparison for more average rolls. Off the top of my head you're as likely to kill both a S3 and S5 character in a single casting with dwellers (1/2*1/6=1/12) as you are with gateway (3/36=1/12). Yes, gateway will also take the rest of the unit off, whereas dwellers will only remove ~30-50% of the models in addition to the the two characters on that 1/12. However, in the remaining 11/12 times dwellers will likely be taking off far more than the 4 (vs T4) or 5 (vs T3) wounds (assuming no saves) that gateway will be doing.

Which is why I said if we were talking about the BRB lores that life would certainly rate higher on my list, although an 11-12 Gateway is far more likely to wipe out, say, a 10,000 point unit (to state an extreme example) than dweller could was the point I was trying to make. If you are trying to prove the outright brokeness of Dwellers (and to an extent the other big spells), then I don't nesessarily disagree with you, but does that mean gateways destroy unit with no regard isn't equally redunkulous? Not really. I see this spell in action a lot and its not hard for the player to cast compared to dwellers and unlike Dwellers, doesn't rely on casting a separate spell to neuter miscasts. Being able to push the spell through every phase with impunity means those otherwise seemingly long odds actually start shorten quite a bit (and yes taking into account Throne of Vines and Dice availability , this goes for Dwellers as well). Even an average strength Gateway will on odds still take off 5-6 standard models (give or take) with virtually no armour save, still pretty decent.
Trying to brush Gateway off as being particularly mild or unit removal as next to impossible just tends to get my hackles up, I've seen it in action far too often (both as an observer and a victim) to take it mildly.