Which Legions Would Work Best Together?

[althathir]

I just don't feel you are giving the Night Lords their do credit as a fighting force prier to their "We iz da scariest, eva" stuff comes into play.

Most of the negative traits of each Legion is shared by the other, brutality, taking of fetishes/trophies, mutalating corpses, "scary" image ect. The ones that are not wouldn't really matter, savages vs gangsters. And the positive traits match up well also. Namely their efficiency as a fighting force.

The NL + SW combo is also supported by Lorgar's vision of his Legion being killed. Either that's the real combo that would be used or it's the two legions that Lorgar fears the most, combined. You never know with Chaos, really. Either way it still shows that either the writer/s, Primarch/s, the Emperor, Chaos God/s and or Fluff God/s view this as a particularly nasty combo. Whether or not its the best is debatable, but that's the fun with fluff.

If I'm not alot of it comes from the opinions of Talos tbh and I don't think they would be a bad combination I just don't think they would be a great one.

The wolves tend to mutalate corpses on a much smaller scale as well and mainly when they see something as evil. I'd also make the argument that savages vs. gangsters wouldn't be traits that don't matter, they could lead to a lot of friction.

As far as lorgars vision I can understand why they would be the most scary combination to him. Faith is central to him, and wolves would destroy everything they could, while the Night Lords sent messages to people that were also looking for something to believe in (mainly this is whats gonna happen to you). Being destroyed for his faith IMO would actaully appeal to Lorgar, as long as it didn't die with him.

[Stonerhino]

@ savages vs gangsters: The Night Lords were quiet enough about their "Gangsterisms" so that Cruze never noticed it or didn't care. So just like every other Legion their manorisms would just be viewed as differences in culture by other Legions. Whereas the Space Wolves' manorisms were seen in a very different light. Much like post Angron World Eaters.

But here in lies what I think would make this combo workable. Cruze and the Night Lords would view the "Black and white" world view that Russ and the Space Wolves have as respectable. Maybe not enough to completely overlook the "Savages" part. But enough to allow them to make close allies. And the actions that either Legion takes would not triger the same discust as it would to most other Legions.

Meaning that the "Gangsterism" of the Night lords were not bad enough to affect their standing in the eyes of other Legions and the Space Wolves' views would be enough for the Night Lords to overlook their "Savage" nature.

So with no philosophical infighting. These, two of the most brutal of all Legions would be allowed to vistit their destruction on the enemies of mankind. Unabridged.

Edit: Nevermind. I was to slow so just made a new post.

[althathir]

Cause Cruze was kinda a Gangster too he used fear to get what he wants. Regardless even if does work its just too brutal legions fighting together they don't cover eachother's weaknesses or another like that.

[Stonerhino]

As far as lorgars vision I can understand why they would be the most scary combination to him. Faith is central to him, and wolves would destroy everything they could, while the Night Lords sent messages to people that were also looking for something to believe in (mainly this is whats gonna happen to you). Being destroyed for his faith IMO would actaully appeal to Lorgar, as long as it didn't die with him.

That's why I included so many options as to who might "view this as a particularly nasty combo". Because that vision might be tied to something Lorgar and the other Primarchs already knew. Namely the Emperor's Final Sanction. Because if he sees that vision as the final sanction then he would already know that he and his legion would be expurged from Imperial records. Like they never even existed. Which would be a fate worse then death for Lorgar.

The possibility of the SW+NL combo being the Emperor's finial sanction puts it really high on the list of "Legions working well together".

[Lupe]

Regardless even if does work its just too brutal legions fighting together they don't cover eachother's weaknesses or another like that.

Not really true. I'd say they complement each other quite well. The Night Lords never really fancy a fair fight, and would rather get the drop on someone who's fighting someone else already. The Wolves would like nothing better to do than to join battle so they can show off their prowess. Seems like a match made in heaven to me.

EDIT: They also have things in common. They're patient, thorough, feel compelled to intimidate their foes, and both see warfare as a hunt.

[althathir]

Not really true. I'd say they complement each other quite well. The Night Lords never really fancy a fair fight, and would rather get the drop on someone who's fighting someone else already. The Wolves would like nothing better to do than to join battle so they can show off their prowess. Seems like a match made in heaven to me.

EDIT: They also have things in common. They're patient, thorough, feel compelled to intimidate their foes, and both see warfare as a hunt.

I'm not suggesting they'd be bad, I just think that wolves would be better teamed up with other forces. Their strengths during the time they'd get along, are fairly similiar but I don't see how that makes them one of the better combinations. Really I don't think wolves or NL would gain much from working with another stealthy alpha strike style force, seige specialists like IW or IF sure i get it, Logistical masterminds like UM & DA again makes sense, really mobile forces like the scars I can see (though at this point they all have all the vehicles they want), hell even just numbers like WBs would help out more than just doubling up on strength, unless you think thats the best way to fight. I just don't see Space Wolves & Night lords as a combination being that well rounded.

[Stonerhino]

@Benefits.

The Space Wolves, would benefit most from an ally that will attack the enemy's ability to command and control, re-enforce the front lines and to gather intelligence. (Alpha Legion, Raven Guard or Night Lords)

The Night Lords, would benefit most from an ally that will pin down the enemy's main forces so that they can focus on the softer targets. (Blood Angels, Death Guard, Luna Wolves, Space Wolves or World Eaters)

Both forces already do the other's job when they are on their own. But when you combine them then one's strengths covers the other's weaker areas and vice versa.

I already addressed Alpa Legion's and Raven Guard's problems with fullfilling the role that would most benefit the Space Wolves. So I'll address the problems that arise with the ones that would fullfill the Night Lords "Needs".

Blood Angels: Would have a problem with Cruze's use of excessive force. Eventually leading to inter-Primarch/Legion difficulties.
Death Guard: Will also work but I see the Space Wolve bringing more to the table as allies.
Luna Wolves: Horus, would see political problems letting Cruze behave the way he did. Eventually leading to the Night Lords being censur.
World Eaters: No philosophical problems but you just get a better overall ally with Russ.

[althathir]

@Benefits.

The Space Wolves, would benefit most from an ally that will attack the enemy's ability to command and control, re-enforce the front lines and to gather intelligence. (Alpha Legion, Raven Guard or Night Lords)

Every legion can reinforce the front line so I'm gonna ignore that one, Gathering Intelligence I think is debatable there isn't much background about that in the HH books (current wolves could use it though) but Russ doesn't seem to have any problems locating the soft targets. Which leaves us with an ally that attacks an enemies ability to command and control which is important but its not just the Night Lords that are good againist this (and their main plan is to attack so fast that the enemy doesn't have one... which sounds a lot like what the Wolves do).

The Night Lords, would benefit most from an ally that will pin down the enemy's main forces so that they can focus on the softer targets. (Blood Angels, Death Guard, Luna Wolves, Space Wolves or World Eaters)

Really Ultras, Word bearers, and DA should be included that list if for nothing else shear numbers for the 1st two, and the lions grasp of tactics making it easier for them to have an oppportunity againist a soft target

Both forces already do the other's job when they are on their own. But when you combine them then one's strengths covers the other's weaker areas and vice versa.

So what happens if they face a seige, or an enemy thats spread out? So far the one battle in HH that Russ had problems with was on Dulan, and the lion spotted the weakness and finished it would the Night Lords notice it?

I already addressed Alpa Legion's and Raven Guard's problems with fullfilling the role that would most benefit the Space Wolves. So I'll address the problems that arise with the ones that would fullfill the Night Lords "Needs".

Blood Angels: Would have a problem with Cruze's use of excessive force. Eventually leading to inter-Primarch/Legion difficulties.
Death Guard: Will also work but I see the Space Wolve bringing more to the table as allies.
Luna Wolves: Horus, would see political problems letting Cruze behave the way he did. Eventually leading to the Night Lords being censur.
World Eaters: No philosophical problems but you just get a better overall ally with Russ.

I think the BA my cut them a bit more slack with primarchs being seers I think there may be a bit more empathy there (they both have quirky forsight). Deathguard if you think the main thing night lords are missing is someone to pin the enemy down than they fit much better than wolves (and I don't like giving Deathguard credit). Luna Wolves really depends on when they partner, and who they're againist. World Eaters again if you see the primary need of night lords is someone to pin the enemy down they're probably better than wolves if for no other reason sheer numbers

Responses above in bold.

[Mag-El]

Responses above in bold.

I think he is meaning the Night Lords will attack the enemies ability to: (1)Commnd and Control (2) re-enforce (3) Gather intelligence.

Not just the first one.

[althathir]

I think he is meaning the Night Lords will attack the enemies ability to: (1)Commnd and Control (2) re-enforce (3) Gather intelligence.

Not just the first one.

Yeah that is another way of reading it , though honestly my answer wouldn't change both legions fight in similiar manners and the wolves would attack all those things as well, I don't think they cover eachothers weaknesses much at all. Would they be effective sure, would the be one of the best combinations I don't think so (granted they wouldn't be one of the worst either).

[Lupe]

The Wolves main advantage is that they're intimidating, they're unpredictable and they like to attract attention to themselves. These are three key elements for the Night Lords' operations, and of all the legions, it's only the Wolves and the World Eaters who bring all of these elements to the team. Why are these things so important?

Unpredictable is good, because the Night Lords want their enemies to discard their original plans and be caught flat-footed.
Intimidating is good because the Night Lords want their enemies to be disconcerted and unseay, so that their terror strategy increases in effectiveness.
Attracting attention? Well, that's the real beauty, you see? It's not because the Night Lords are lowly bastards afraid to get sucked into a fair fight - well, it's not just that. The Night Lords want their enemies to know exactly where the Wolves are, how they fight, and what kind of forensic evidence they leave on the corpses of broken defenders. That way, when grotesquely tortured and mutilated bodies are found in quiet garrisons half a world away from where the Wolves are landing, the terror is far more unsettling, and far more likely to burst into mass hysteria.

It also helps that, between the World Eaters and the Space Wolves, the Night Lords have more in common with the latter. I've already mentioned their similar perspectives on war as a hunt, rather than brawl. Another common trait is that they both plan around the weakneses of the enemy, rather than their own strengths, in order to win the fastest and most decisive victory possible. Then there's also the same mindset that there are no hold barred on the way to victory. And then they share their willingness - no, their commitment - to go so far as to desecrate fallen opponents in order to drive their point home.

[Stonerhino]

I think he is meaning the Night Lords will attack the enemies ability to: (1)Commnd and Control (2) re-enforce (3) Gather intelligence.

This first.

Every legion can reinforce the front line so I'm gonna ignore that one, Gathering Intelligence I think is debatable there isn't much background about that in the HH books (current wolves could use it though) but Russ doesn't seem to have any problems locating the soft targets. Which leaves us with an ally that attacks an enemies ability to command and control which is important but its not just the Night Lords that are good againist this (and their main plan is to attack so fast that the enemy doesn't have one... which sounds a lot like what the Wolves do).

What we have is two allies that will fight a very simular war but approach it in different ways.

The Space Wolves will go for the throat and break the enemy's back. While the Night Lords are going to cut off the enemy's head. Therein hampering the enemy's ability to fight off the Space Wolves.

The reason that some of the other forces you mentioned don't fit the bill for the Night Lords. Is that they lack the "Shock and Awe" aspect. At least to the levels needed to completely draw the enemy's attention away from the Night Lords. And as Lupe says the Space Wolves and World Eaters are the best fit. The Death Guard, only made the list as an afterthought because a bunch of Marines marching towards you enmass has it's own way of distracting you.

Between the Space Wolves and World Eaters. The Space Wolves win out because of Russ' ability to lead. His tactical mind wins out over Angron's rage. Not to mention all the before mentioned simularities between the Legions' modus operandi.

[Lupe]

The Space Wolves win out because of Russ' ability to lead. His tactical mind wins out over Angron's rage. Not to mention all the before mentioned simularities between the Legions' modus operandi.

Ah, yes. The wolves are flexible, independent, creative - in their own way, which mostly applies to finding new ways of killing stuff - and tend not to dwell on trivial things like ethics or politics. The Night Lords share much common ground with them, and both legions would rather fight on their own terms, even when neither is keen on imposing their own rules onto others. The World Eaters would be the second choice, because they're significantly less flexible, and have a predisposition to expect other allies to live by their own warrior code. The Blood Angels are flexible, but retain the predisposition to expect others to conform to their own warrior code. The Death Guard come off on a weaker position, because their creed of self reliance comes first, while still being an inflexible, unimaginative force. The Ultramarines and Imperial Fists would be roughly equal with the World Eaters (after the Wolves), because they tick all the boxes except for the warrior codes.

[althathir]

This first.
What we have is two allies that will fight a very simular war but approach it in different ways.

The Space Wolves will go for the throat and break the enemy's back. While the Night Lords are going to cut off the enemy's head. Therein hampering the enemy's ability to fight off the Space Wolves.

The reason that some of the other forces you mentioned don't fit the bill for the Night Lords. Is that they lack the "Shock and Awe" aspect. At least to the levels needed to completely draw the enemy's attention away from the Night Lords. And as Lupe says the Space Wolves and World Eaters are the best fit. The Death Guard, only made the list as an afterthought because a bunch of Marines marching towards you enmass has it's own way of distracting you.

Between the Space Wolves and World Eaters. The Space Wolves win out because of Russ' ability to lead. His tactical mind wins out over Angron's rage. Not to mention all the before mentioned simularities between the Legions' modus operandi.

Right what do they in a protracted siege? Seriously what do they do, I'm sure they could beat more foes but I have to bet if they were paired with different legions it would quite a bit smoother. The combination isn't very well rounded and in order to be one of the best ones they should be. Thats my point and you've never presented any argument againist it.

I would also point that cruze and horus were the two primarchs mortarion was close too, which should probably count more than tolerating how they fight, and I think they fit shock & Awe fairly well you can't just ignore them or they'll walk all over you.

Ah, yes. The wolves are flexible, independent, creative - in their own way, which mostly applies to finding new ways of killing stuff - and tend not to dwell on trivial things like ethics or politics. The Night Lords share much common ground with them, and both legions would rather fight on their own terms, even when neither is keen on imposing their own rules onto others. The World Eaters would be the second choice, because they're significantly less flexible, and have a predisposition to expect other allies to live by their own warrior code. The Blood Angels are flexible, but retain the predisposition to expect others to conform to their own warrior code. The Death Guard come off on a weaker position, because their creed of self reliance comes first, while still being an inflexible, unimaginative force. The Ultramarines and Imperial Fists would be roughly equal with the World Eaters (after the Wolves), because they tick all the boxes except for the warrior codes.

Ask Magnus about the underlined part .

[still-young]

What about Night Lords and Alpha Legion? Maybe not the best, and would only work in certain situations, but it would be terrifying for the opposition:

The night lords attack, spreading terror through the ranks of the enemies, and then things start going wrong; tanks/vehicles, buildings, communications etc being sabotaged, people dissapearing, people turning on each other... I think that would be over pretty quickly.