banner of the world dragon clarification

[untimention]

Sorry guys,

i need hrlp to clarify the banner, when it says immune to all spell effects, does this inc damage such as plague? Im thinking for my unit of 50 spearmen

[hamsterwheel]

Sorry guys,

i need hrlp to clarify the banner, when it says immune to all spell effects, does this inc damage such as plague? Im thinking for my unit of 50 spearmen

It means that the spell still goes off, but the unit doesn't suffer the effects of the spell. In your particular example plague is cast on the unit, which does nothing to that unit but doesn't prevent plague from bouncing to another unit close by.

[Artinam]

Seeing a recent post, does the banner protect against miscast effects? An opponent pulled this off and I'm having trouble finding arguments pro or contra.

[untimention]

So a magic missile etc does nothing, now that sounds good to me

[Crube]

It says immune to all spell effects. It doesnt state miscasts etc.

I'm assuming this refers to a mage within the unit? If so, then the mage will still be affected by the miscast, but if the miscast was as a result of a double 6, then the spell will go off with IF, and the effects of the spell wont affect the unit...

[untimention]

Agreed, it says that spell not miscast

[Hell Storm]

In the BRB FAQ:
Q: Is damage caused by a miscast counted as a spell? Can a model
with Magic Resistance add it to its ward save against it? Is any
damage caused counted as being caused by the Wizard? (p34)
A: No to all questions.

[Trains_Get_Robbed]

How about a spell attribute? Say the lore attribute for lore of shadow. Could you switch places with the character with the BotWD and say that mage that casted the Shadow spell. I thought yes for the longest time, as thh Lore attribute's aren't spell effects, they're an exterior beneficiary acting upon the resolving of a spell. Thoughts?

[Lord Inquisitor]

Lore attributes are part of the spell, so won't work.

[warplock]

Lore attributes are part of the spell, so won't work.

Not true, see the WoC FAQ regarding Third Eye of Tzeentch. "The lore attribute's effect is not part of the spell itself".

[Mr_Rose]

And that is a blatant lie the FAQ writer made up to get around the problem with the LoLife and healing, which you can't do with the third eye.
You can tell its a lie because it doesn't also state that you can't use half of the LoMetal with the eye either, due to not having a way to wound.

[Lord Inquisitor]

Ah, yes, that stupid Third Eye ruling.

For reference here are a couple of other FAQs on Lore Attributes;

Q: Do I get to use Magic Resistance against Wounds caused by
lore attributes? (Reference)
A: Yes.

Q: If a bound spell is from a Lore of Magic with a lore attribute,
will the successful casting of the bound spell also trigger the lore
attribute? (p37)
A: Yes.

Q: Does the Roiling Skies Lore Attribute require you to successfully
cast the spell before its effect can be applied?(Reference)
A: Yes.

So perhaps to clarify what I said, the Lore Attribute is a spell effect that comes from the spell ... but is obviously not part of the spell. As Mr_Rose says, if the Lore Attribute isn't passed on through Third Eye, how are you meant to resolve Lore of Metal hits?

Nevertheless, I think it's pretty safe to say if a Lore Attribute is considered enough of a spell effect to trigger MR, it'll trigger the BotWD, which works on "spell effects". I think that's just vague enough to work.

[Vadth]

As Mr_Rose says, if the Lore Attribute isn't passed on through Third Eye, how are you meant to resolve Lore of Metal hits?

How do you figure that? The FAQ implies that the Lore Attribute IS passed on through Third Eye by allowing you to heal so why would there be a problem with Lore of Metal?

[Mr_Rose]

Yes, the FAQs that Lord Inquisitor quoted do, but strangely the one warplock referenced does not. This is the problem.

[Lord Inquisitor]

Oh. Are you interpreting a model with third eye can use the lore attribute? Funny I assumed the FAQ was saying you didn't get the Lore attribute.

[Vadth]

Um yes, I do. I don't see how you could interpret it that you didn't unless we are looking at completely different FAQs or if you look only at the answer.

Q: Can a model with the Third Eye of Tzeentch cast any spells
from the Lore of Life as the lore attribute allows him to recover
Wounds lost earlier in the battle? (p111)
A: Yes, apart from Regrowth. The lore attribute’s effect is not
part of the spell itself.

The question is asking if you can use Lore of life despite that the lore attribute heals. Since the answer is a flat yes then that means the Third Eye does works with lore attributes. The "lore attribute's effect is not part of the spell itself" part is explaining why it works. IE you can't copy spells that heal, but you can copy spells that outside effects allow it to heal.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Okay, meh, the attribute is always a spell effect. It might be different from the spell but that's normal for causes and effects.

The BotWD works against spells and spell effects. It's a good item but remember that you cannot cast Mindrazor or any other boosts on your relatively weak and fragile Spearmen anymore. It's probably better on PG or some other Elite that brings innate abilities to the table.

[T10]

Um yes, I do. I don't see how you could interpret it that you didn't unless we are looking at completely different FAQs or if you look only at the answer.

Q: Can a model with the Third Eye of Tzeentch cast any spells
from the Lore of Life as the lore attribute allows him to recover
Wounds lost earlier in the battle? (p111)
A: Yes, apart from Regrowth. The lore attribute’s effect is not
part of the spell itself.

The question is asking if you can use Lore of life despite that the lore attribute heals. Since the answer is a flat yes then that means the Third Eye does works with lore attributes. The "lore attribute's effect is not part of the spell itself" part is explaining why it works. IE you can't copy spells that heal, but you can copy spells that outside effects allow it to heal.

I can't see how this is supposed to work unless you are supposed to entirely discount the Lore Attribute of the borrowed spell. Mind you: This is not something that the rule description or any errata tells us to do.

And that is a blatant lie the FAQ writer made up to get around the problem with the LoLife and healing, which you can't do with the third eye.
You can tell its a lie because it doesn't also state that you can't use half of the LoMetal with the eye either, due to not having a way to wound.

I could run through the quirkyness involved with the various 8th ed. Lores, but to sum it up: I agree.

The FAQ is wrong.

-T10

[Vadth]

I can't see how this is supposed to work unless you are supposed to entirely discount the Lore Attribute of the borrowed spell.

Then how does Lore of Metal work? How can the answer to "Can I use these spells that allow me to recover wounds" be yes if you discount the Lore Attribute? How does it make sense that bound items get the Lore Attribute but the Third Eye does not? Discounting the Lore Attribute causes far far more problems than having it work as normal. That aside, I don't see how you interpret "The lore attribute’s effect is not
part of the spell itself" as the Third Eye doesn't get lore attributes. Please explain to me how you reaching that conclusion.

[Lord Inquisitor]

Um yes, I do. I don't see how you could interpret it that you didn't unless we are looking at completely different FAQs or if you look only at the answer.

Q: Can a model with the Third Eye of Tzeentch cast any spells
from the Lore of Life as the lore attribute allows him to recover
Wounds lost earlier in the battle? (p111)
A: Yes, apart from Regrowth. The lore attribute’s effect is not
part of the spell itself.

The question is asking if you can use Lore of life despite that the lore attribute heals. Since the answer is a flat yes then that means the Third Eye does works with lore attributes. The "lore attribute's effect is not part of the spell itself" part is explaining why it works. IE you can't copy spells that heal, but you can copy spells that outside effects allow it to heal.

I see how you came to this conclusion - I'm just saying I have never even considered it meant anything else but "you don't get the Lore attribute with the Eye". I've never seen anyone else interpret it any other way either. Not saying you're wrong, just I've never come across this interpretation before.

I'm still trying to wrap my brain around it. So you can cast spells with the Lore of Life and use the spell to regain wounds on any model with 12", even though the Eye forbids use of any spell that heals wounds suffered earlier in the game.