Anti-Chaos Army?

[Miyozaki]

Now, I've been back into the game for a little over a year and I feel my Lizardmen list is complete. Thing is, both my regular opponents are throwing WoC at me and in smaller games, I don't have a lot of magic to bring to the table. I can't bring my Slann to a 1000PT game, for example. Lizards in my experience, don't fare too well against the harder hitting Chaos units without magical buffs.

One of my best friends rolls out a mixture of Tzeentch and Khorne (Wizard Prince, Khorne Hero, Khorne Marauders, Tzeentch Warriors/Knights and Warhounds) whilst the other is running an (I believe) illegal Khorne set using Warriors, Marauders, Bloodletters, Chaos Dwarves and a General on a Juggernaut.

I'm not opposed to starting a new army to try and keep up with their might on the tabletop, so my question is: What army would be good against Chaos in a smaller 1000-1200Pt game?

[frenka]

Skaven are allways good?

[Lord Dan]

The WoC player runs Chaos Dwarves?

[Miyozaki]

Yeah. Just a unit of them and I think he wants to add a couple more. I don't mind him using them as long as he sticks to the Lords, Heroes, Core, Special and Rare ratios in the rulebook. I think he eventually wants to do Storms of Magic because he was talking about Chimeras and Manticores.

Would Ogres be any good in small point games?

[Phazael]

Ogres struggle against warriors of chaos. Lizards are actually quite solid against them, however, even without the frog crutch. Skink/Krox units and saurus are more point efficient and little chaffey units of salamanders and skinks can cause all sorts of issues for WoC. They also have issues against T6 monsters, so even a generic Steg can cause problems.

[White_13oy]

He can't use daemons in WoC at all. And in order to run chaos dwarfs he needs I believe a daemonsmith.

[TornadoCreator]

He can't use daemons in WoC at all. And in order to run chaos dwarfs he needs I believe a daemonsmith.

Actually he can use Daemons in a Warriors of Chaos army. So long as he follow the 'Tides Of Conquest' rules and his 25% Minimum Core are mortals from the Warriors Of Chaos book he's fine. (He can also use Beastmen as well when using these rules). These rules are in pages 142-145 of "Tamurkhan, The Throne Of Chaos" and they are current 8th edition tournament legal rules, approved by Games Workshop themselves. Assuming the percentages are correct that army is legal but only, as you say, if he has a Chaos Dwarf Sorcerer-Prophet (Drazhoath The Ashen would count) or a Chaos Dwarf Daemonsmith in the army. That's 4 heroes/lords in a 1000 point game... I'd seriously question how he can afford that many characters with so few points, I personally reckon he's overspent and isn't saying anything.

[Snake1311]

[QUOTE=TornadoCreator;6367296]Actually he can use Daemons in a Warriors of Chaos army. So long as he follow the 'Tides Of Conquest' rules and his 25% Minimum Core are mortals from the Warriors Of Chaos book he's fine. (He can also use Beastmen as well when using these rules). These rules are in pages 142-145 of "Tamurkhan, The Throne Of Chaos" and they are current 8th edition tournament legal rules, approved by Games Workshop themselves. [QUOTE]

Nnnnnno.

The only reference to the Tamurkahn book being WH legal is...in the Tamurkahn book itself. Need I explain why that is insufficient? I don't even think there is any reference to its existance on the standard GW site.

Chaos Dwarfs, and any of the extra content in that book, isn't actually allowed at the GW sancitoned tournaments AFAIK.

That said, if the guy in quesiton isn't loading out on warmachine shooting (which WoC shouldn't have much of from a balance perspective) I would allow it - CD units would be included mostly for flavor, there isn't really much they can do (in their core anyway) that WoC can't do better. I am a bit more concerned with the bloodletters, since they actually add something the army normally lacks - a defensive block (since they don't break they will stick around for a bit after lost combats) as well as killing blow.

On topic, lizzies shold do just fine against the abovementioned chaos builds. Keep in mind your combat blocks won't do much, because as you said yourself, they can't stand toe to toe with WoC counterparts without magic. What you need to focus on is chaff and shooting - i.e. lots and lots of skirmishing skinks & chameleons, pepper the enemy with poison, and postpone combat for as long as possible (which is VERY long with that build). 2 or 3 salamanders will also make the opponent cry.

A saurus dude on a cold one with some defensive gear can abuse their 'mandatory challenge' mechanic and can hold up units with low static for a long time.

2 Saurus on cold ones - the front one with defensive gear, the back one a BSB with crown of command - can torpedo a unit for a looooong time if you keeo your flanks clear.

[TornadoCreator]

Actually he can use Daemons in a Warriors of Chaos army. So long as he follow the 'Tides Of Conquest' rules and his 25% Minimum Core are mortals from the Warriors Of Chaos book he's fine. (He can also use Beastmen as well when using these rules). These rules are in pages 142-145 of "Tamurkhan, The Throne Of Chaos" and they are current 8th edition tournament legal rules, approved by Games Workshop themselves.

Nnnnnno.

The only reference to the Tamurkahn book being WH legal is...in the Tamurkahn book itself. Need I explain why that is insufficient? I don't even think there is any reference to its existance on the standard GW site.

Chaos Dwarfs, and any of the extra content in that book, isn't actually allowed at the GW sancitoned tournaments AFAIK.

Yyyyyyes.

It amazes me how many people will blanket state "this isn't allowed in tournaments", when they haven't the faintest bloody clue what they're talking about.



Forgeworld IS Games Workshop, they're the same bloody company. If Forgeworld say it's game legal, it IS game legal, end of discussion.

That said, if the guy in quesiton isn't loading out on warmachine shooting (which WoC shouldn't have much of from a balance perspective) I would allow it - CD units would be included mostly for flavor, there isn't really much they can do (in their core anyway) that WoC can't do better. I am a bit more concerned with the bloodletters, since they actually add something the army normally lacks - a defensive block (since they don't break they will stick around for a bit after lost combats) as well as killing blow.

That's so nice of you allowing them to use the army list that they're already allowed to use. I'm sure they're so happy that they have your permission to play a game they've spent hundreds of pounds and countless hours on. Look, I'm not trying to be an **** here but one of my biggest pet peeves is being told what I can and can't field by people who don't know the rules in the first place. It's supposed to be a fun game, let people play what they want so long as they're justifying it. This isn't a cheap hobby, so if someone puts together an army, respect their time and effort enough to let them play it or at least long enough to check if there army is legal rather than just deciding. I have a friend who still plays Kislev and his army is awesome, why would I want to deny him the chance to play just because the average player doesn't know the rules for one or two models, I don't know the rules for High Elves or Skaven, should they be banned. Now with things like Chaos Dwarves there's no excuse for saying no, this isn't an obscure discontinued Slayers or Squats list, it's an up to date, current, 8th Edition army list in a well publicised book.

On topic, lizzies shold do just fine against the abovementioned chaos builds. Keep in mind your combat blocks won't do much, because as you said yourself, they can't stand toe to toe with WoC counterparts without magic. What you need to focus on is chaff and shooting - i.e. lots and lots of skirmishing skinks & chameleons, pepper the enemy with poison, and postpone combat for as long as possible (which is VERY long with that build). 2 or 3 salamanders will also make the opponent cry.

A saurus dude on a cold one with some defensive gear can abuse their 'mandatory challenge' mechanic and can hold up units with low static for a long time.

2 Saurus on cold ones - the front one with defensive gear, the back one a BSB with crown of command - can torpedo a unit for a looooong time if you keeo your flanks clear.

Decent advice.

I'd also try to get a unit of Terradons in there. Fliers can really mess up the battleline for Chaos, go wide on the flank, get behind his main units and rear charge. With poisoned attacks and a combined charge from the front with Saurus Warriors (preferably with spears) or Temple Guard you'll generally put down Chaos Warriors, Bloodletters etc. with relative ease, especially if you've hit them with skinks and reduced them down a little.

[Blkc57]

I hate to jump into the middle of this debate on what in Tamurkhan constitutes a legal list but I have since the release of the book been trying to play the lists in tournament settings. Having been to several Indy GTs (as there are really no official GW tournaments anymore in the US except for Throne of Skulls) , I will say that you are both half correct and half wrong. Technically Tornadocreator, the only section that grants tournament legal status to a list in Tamurkhan is a preface before the Chaos Dwarf list. The Warriors of Chaos section doesn't have the same sentence that states it is an official list. I do so wish that the Warriors sections was legal as I have several units of plague toads and Bile trolls all beautifully painted from forge world, but I have never found a tournament willing to let me run them. And Snake, Chaos Dwarfs are legal and every tournament I have gone to has embraced them whole heartedly with their Kai Dai Destroyers et al.

[Leogun_91]

Empire can be tooled against Chaos, even with armywide re-rolls to panic your handguns are cheap enough to hurt badly for his warriors (almost 2 handgunners per warrior, it will be if he takes command and upgrades at least), getting some lore of metal in is no problem at all and Outriders and Pistoliers will be a pain for him, cannons will pick of his monsters while mortars, rocket batteries and/or hellblasters will thin out his marauders.*
Gunlines may be frowned upon but they are quite effective as anti-chaos.

*Note that, while it's possible I do not suggest you yo use all of that at 1k.

[TornadoCreator]

I hate to jump into the middle of this debate on what in Tamurkhan constitutes a legal list but I have since the release of the book been trying to play the lists in tournament settings. Having been to several Indy GTs (as there are really no official GW tournaments anymore in the US except for Throne of Skulls) , I will say that you are both half correct and half wrong. Technically Tornadocreator, the only section that grants tournament legal status to a list in Tamurkhan is a preface before the Chaos Dwarf list. The Warriors of Chaos section doesn't have the same sentence that states it is an official list. I do so wish that the Warriors sections was legal as I have several units of plague toads and Bile trolls all beautifully painted from forge world, but I have never found a tournament willing to let me run them. And Snake, Chaos Dwarfs are legal and every tournament I have gone to has embraced them whole heartedly with their Kai Dai Destroyers et al.

Which sentence specifically do you mean as I've got the book in front of me now and I can't find any prefaces or statement that sets that list apart from the rest of the book. As for tournaments, here in UK Chaos Mammoths and Bile Trolls have both been allowed so perhaps the US tournaments are being needlessly exclusionary. Chaos Dwarves section starts on page 163 and the army list itself starts on page 188, neither page or any page around them seems to have anything on them, do we have different versions of the same book or something?

[Miyozaki]

I'm perfectly happy for him to use anything Chaos on his team as long as he sticks to the ratios for Core etc as in the rulebook. I did already say that, but thank you for trying to tell me I'd be at a disadvantage, even if it did start an argument that went right over my head lol

So Brets and Lizzies seem to be the top? So worth me sticking with Lizzies and just working out a force to combat him with. Are Lizardmen viable without Terradons? I really don't like them.

[Lord Dan]

Play what you want. We can help you build an army to face a particular opponent, however we can't help you like one particular army.

[Miyozaki]

I love the Lizards. I have a 3.3K army of them; I'm just not keen on Terradons. I have pretty much everything from the army list except Characters, Kroxigors, Razordons and Terradons. Would it help if I listed what I have available?

Slann
Engine of the Gods
Skink Priest x2
Old Blood x2
Chakax (My very first Lizard)
Salamander Pack x2
Cold One Cavalry x12 (Could sub a Champ for a Mounted Old Blood/Hero)
Saurus Warriors (Spears) x48
Saurus Warriors x17
Skinks/Skirmishers/Chameleon Skinks (I have been using Skink models as proxies for Chameleons) x18

[Lord Dan]

So I just wrote up a quick list:

Slaan w/ lore of metal, cupped hands, focused rumination, focus of mystery, BSB
Skink priest w/ engine of the gods

24 Saurus w/ Full command, spears
24 Saurus w/ Full command, spears
10 skink skirmishers
10 skink skirmishers
10 skink skirmishers

17 temple guard w/ Full command

salamander
salamander
7 chameleons
7 chameleons

It comes out to just shy of 2200, so you've got 300 odd points to play with. To achieve this list you'll need to pick up a box of 24 skinks for the extra skirmishers/chameleons, and proxy the 17 warriors you have as temple guard. With your leftover points I'd recommend investing in another stegadon and another box of temple guard. So I'd recommend you pick up:

1 x Skinks
1 x Temple guard
1 x Stegadon

Hope this helps.

[Miyozaki]

lol. Sorry, Dan. This is for 1000-1200PT games atm.

[TornadoCreator]

The main problem you've got is the game scope. At 1000-2000 points Lizardmen are pretty gimped, (that said so are Chaos so it's not so bad). Without the Slaan to control the magic phase, and no fliers to take on the flank/rear charge you may have difficulty controlling the combat. Nothing in your army is moving faster than 7 inches (and that's only the Cold One Cavalry), most are moving either 4 or 6 inches. This means Knights, Wardogs and Horsemen can control the board, dictating unit placement with their higher movements. Getting decent charge-lines to flanks or rear will be extremely difficult leaving your Saurus to fight against Chaos Warriors unsupported, a match-up that they statistically won't do well in.

Honestly, are Lizardmen viable without Terradons? Sure, I guess, but it seriously lowers your tactical options and against armies with faster flanking units (almost everyone except Tomb Kings and Dwarfs) and stronger infantry (which granted for Lizardmen is really just Chaos and Ogre Kingdoms), you'll find yourself quickly bottle-necked and forced onto a defensive that your line just won't hold. At 3000-4000 points you can start fielding enough ranged units, and control the magic phase enough that this is less of an issue, but without Terradons you're fighting "fair". Even comparing Chaos Warriors to your Temple Guard; they have a better weapon skill, better armour save, better initiative, and they'll likely be boosted further with magic banners or marks of chaos... oh and they're 2 points LESS than your Temple Guard. Without tactical play you won't take them down easily and they're just the basic core troops, we've not even looked at the Knights yet. For Lizardmen to be competitive I consider Terradons mandatory. I'd have at least 2 units of 5, (one unit for each flank), which'll set you back 350 points at Special meaning that's doable even at 1000pts. Now, don't get me wrong, they're not going to win you the game on their own, you need Sayrus, Temple Guard, or Kroxigors to dish out the pain but rear charging fliers really screw over Chaos (as well as many others), and in 8th edition, unit tactics have far greater sway on the outcome of the game, especially with infantry.

[logan054]

I hate to jump into the middle of this debate on what in Tamurkhan constitutes a legal list but I have since the release of the book been trying to play the lists in tournament settings. Having been to several Indy GTs (as there are really no official GW tournaments anymore in the US except for Throne of Skulls) , I will say that you are both half correct and half wrong. Technically Tornadocreator, the only section that grants tournament legal status to a list in Tamurkhan is a preface before the Chaos Dwarf list. The Warriors of Chaos section doesn't have the same sentence that states it is an official list

To be exact the great host actually states its a permission only list (which is fair enough as it uses 3 books to make one list), aside that I think this forum needs a like button for TornadoCreator's post, I kinda read snakes post, rolled my eyes and decided I couldn't be bothered to comment on it. Also next time you play the guy I suggest you ask to see his armylist, you can't have a daemon prince at 1k, even without magic level, if he has a jugger he wont have any other heroes.

As for the topic, I tend to agree that lizards are a perfectly fine counter to WoC, I can however see why they are forcing you into playing smaller games, slanns are very nasty things to deal with, if you really want a new army to fit him a 1k VC list with banshees and a terrorghiest might be the way to deal with him (or even just the terror).

[TornadoCreator]

You know i didn't even twig that he said one of them was using a Daemon Prince because he said Wizard Prince, I assumed he just meant a Sorcerer of some kind and moved on, I'm actually quite annoyed I missed that.

As for the Chaos Host rules, it does say in the designers notes that the Chaos Host list is not meant to be competitively balanced and that it's meant more for fluff games of over 3000 points, but it never actually says that it's a permission only list. Naturally I'd ask tournament organisers in advance and even ask people in friendly games, just out of politeness. Generally I don't play in tournaments anyway, especially as currently I don't even have an army. At the moment I'm using "stand-in" bases which even most friendly games would frown at, luckily I've got very laid back friends who don't seem to mind much if the army is complete or official, in fact we've even got the fan-made books for Norse, Albion, Estalia, The Kingdom of Ind, Cathay, Nippon and The Fimir and have been trying them out to see if they're balanced. They're generally good, although Cathay and Nippon are overpowered (clear case of oriental bias, bloody otaku). I've always found Warhammer far more fun amongst friends than random strangers at tournaments anyway.