Best points lvl to teach a new player with?

[HurrDurr]

I think 3k-5k is the best for fantasy, past that magic still sits at 12 max dice and doesn't scale any further, sure some people argue that it's already powerful enough but once you start getting to those points values you start seeing a lot of things being duplicated and no choice is as strong when someone can field their entire book. No idea for 40k though.

[Jind_Singh]

I do a lot of basic starter games with newbies who want to learn the game - I always do 500, 750, or a 1000.

500pt games work VERY well with warhammer - so long as your sensible.

For 500pts I take:

Night Goblin Warboss, light armor/shield
39 Night Goblins, command, fanatic, netters
20 Night Goblin Archers, command, fanatic, netters
5 Squig Hoppers

What I take is based on:

A basic character to lead the list - now Goblins are pretty weedy so a lord isn't game breaking - but for armies with really good characters that's not the case and I'll take heroes (Like if it was Orcs for e.g). I tend not to bother with magic items either - it's complicated, and no need to learn new rules at this point - also keeps list building easy.

A basic unit for the lord - in this case 39 Night Goblins - big enough to look like a unit but not silly either - 40 strong for a weak core unit, 25 for medium, 15 for good units

A second rank and file unit - smaller than the 1st

Something fun to add some zing to the game - be it a chariot, a warmachine, a level 1 caster, etc, so long as it's not over powered for a 500pt game!


Then just play Warhammer! For small games I do a watch tower type scenario only that it's an objective in the middle of the board - whoever controls it wins.

Once you play about 1 or 2 games do ONE game at 750pts and introduce another element of the game not taken in 500pts.

For me this would be:

Level 2 Caster
15 Squigs, 10 Herders
15pts of magic items

As now we're adding magic to the game, a combat unit, and for the 1st time magic items - which in turn leads to more development of list writing - an overlooked and difficult task for the newbie.

Finally once that's done go to 1000pts until the comfort level takes you to 1500 or 2000.

Reason I stay away from 1000pts at 1st is that it's so over whelming - and games can take too long. At 1st the 500pt will take as much time as a normal 1000pt game - so not losing the attention span is HUGE!

500pts still plays well for Warhammer so long as it's an objective driven game (i.e. story based) but actual warhammer really begins at a 1000 were you can roll for one of the standard 6 missions

[CreativeNameToStandOut]

+1 for T10 suggestion

[AlphariusOmegon20]

Considering that the armies in the Starter box for Warhammer comes in somewhere in the 500 and 1000 pts range each, that's where I'd start.

[DaemonReign]

To this topic I say:
"Show me at least 2000pts of a painted Legal Army - then we can talk.."

As an example, when I started Daemons I didn't play a single game prior to being able to field 2,5k.

I must add a cheer for TornadoCreators post proclaiming his support/belief in 'big games'. All I'll say in that matter is that while the game may not be designed with a specific size in mind (I think it works on all levels, just differently) I'll most certainly chime in with it being 'the most fun' when you're in the 5k-10k range rather than below - and TornadoCreator exemplifies many a good reason for why that is. I think my large games are also a huge contributing factor to why I don't have a problem with any of the 'OP' stuff that people in general complain about (über-spell or whatever) because that stuff is just spice when both sides are bringing 350 models minimum.

[[LLCT]Kain]

, I think that's proof enough than this game is designed to be run at the 5000-10,000 points range.

Could be wrong .-) - beginnig of 8th there was a nice articel about balancing and this stuff. In the end the statement was put in that
8th edition would work best on 2000 points. This opinion I share, 2K gives you a nice cap on super-killer-combos as 25% Lords is a limit there
that would affect the I take all in one modell fraction - AND it gives you the option for a game in 2 to 3 hours.
Personally I prefer to play 2 battles and have a cup of coffee in an afternoon, compared to play all day to have one mighty battle which would be the result of 10K.

As for the initial question, play more and short games - that gives the new one the option to experiment and to learn. There are feww things that s*** more than to make a mistake in turn one and to suffer
3h for that mistake...Go with the old skirmish rules (500 points) and then the hunger for bigger units will come from playing.

[TornadoCreator]

The problem I have with accepting the "Warhammer is designed for 2000 points" idea, are the special characters. With a limit to 25% on Lords, many special characters simply cannot be fielded in 2000 points. Greasus Goldtooth is 545 points, Archaon, The Everchosen is 685 points, Count Mannfred is 530 points (and Vlad is 495 so barely usable). Sure there are armies that don't suffer this problem. Orcs & Goblins and Empire have a large character selection and many cheap options, but most armies will either struggle to get a decent selection of magic and/or unit leaders, or they'll have to poor an entire quarter of their points into a single character. It's not just characters either. "Rare" choices suffer too. With 250 points to spend in rare that's basically saying "no" to everything exotic. Vampire counts can't even afford 5 Blood Knights because at 50 points each 250 is exactly the limit, so no standard bearer, champion etc. allowed making the unit gimped from the start. Does the Warriors Of Chaos player want to include a cool sounding Dragon Ogre Shaggoth, tuff, at 265 points you can't afford it, even without special options. These problems are systemic and they make the game feel very restrictive, especially for people playing the "elite" armies such as Chaos Dwarves, Ogre Kingdoms etc which have very few cheap units or options, especially if you're trying to go for a theme.

Now sure, some people always try power-gaming but if the standard games everyone's playing are forcing my choices on what to field and making me do cheap tactics and point juggling just to get a decent magic phase it simply stops being fun. There's a reason magic feels so powerful in this game, without enough points the game doesn't allow some players to field enough to counter magic. There's also a reason that Empire, Skaven and especially Orcs & Goblins seem so powerful. Choice. They have weaker units and weaker characters overall but they cost less points. Let's compare just as an example....

Ogre Kingdom Characters 1000 points.

General - Tyrant with Heavy Armour, Great Weapon. Sword Of Striking (magic weapon), Dragonbane Gem (talisman) - 247 points.
We've had to go with a Lord choice for our general due to limited points, can't afford the magic items in the OK book, so he's got basic stuff just to make sure he can hit ethereal creatures.

BSB - Bruiser with Battle Standard, Ironfist, Heavy Armour - 138 points
Hero - Butcher with Ironfist, Enchanted Shield (magic shield) - 108 points
We can't afford a magic banner, or to have a level 2 wizard, or to have any significant magic items, or any big name... in fact this is pretty much the bare minimum to get at least one wizard and a BSB in out army.

In total we've spent 493 points on 3 characters, the bare minimum... that's half our army. That's not right surely.

Orcs & Goblins Characters 1000 points.

General - Black Orc Warboss with Shield - 163 points.
Decided on a Lord, black orc choice to lead the army as black orcs block animosity so they're a good choice as a central block. He can lead a Black Orc Unit.

Lord - Goblin Warboss on Giant Spider - 87 points.
BSB - Orc Big Boss with Battle Standard. Banner Of Eternal Flame (magic banner) - 90 points.
Hero - Night Goblin Shaman with Dispel Scroll (arcane item) - 75 points.
Hero - Orc Shaman on War Boar - 81 points
This gives us a Lord to lead a unit of Goblin Spider Riders, two wizards so we're dominating the magic phase. They can hide in units of Night Goblins and Boar Boyz. Really, our options are quite open.

In total we've spent 496 points on 5 characters, but only 3 are really essential so if we find we need more Rank & File we could just drop a character or two. We've got enough characters that we can have one leading every unit we field. If we want to overpower by shear numbers we could probably drop the character cost down to less than 300 points if we want.

See how the Orc & Goblin Player has choice even at 1000 point where as the Ogre player is barely getting by. At 2000 points we have even more choice for the Orcs and Goblins by a long way, but the Ogre player will still struggle. Only at 3000 points or higher does the Ogre player get the same freedom as the Orc & Goblin player. This problem exists for other armies too; Warriors Of Chaos, Vampire Counts and Lizardmen seriously struggle to get the characters they need out and it does unbalance the game I think.

[DaemonReign]

The bigger the game-size the better the balance. That's just a rock solid fact. When they say that the game is designed for 2k the only truth in that statement is that it starts to falter when you go below that point. Double that, and it gets better - triple it (or more) and there's simply no strategic mistake that can't be overcome in a later turn, no character important enough that you can't win if he goes down, no nuke-spell terrible enough that it ends the game.

The only downside is that you can't wrap a game like that up in a couple of hours. 10000pts needs two days of gaming if you want to be casual about it. But try it, I recomend it on the strongest terms - it's a fresh-air kind of experience where all conventional wisdoms of what's 'cheese' and 'poor' is simply out the window.

[-Totenkopf-]

I have to agree on the larger games.. They are the most fun I have playing warhammer.. By large I mean 5-10k pts.. It's true. all cheese is out the window at these large games.. models show up on the table that would never see the light of day in a 2k game.. magic becomes more balanced.. death stars easier to counter. There are just so many good reasons to break out past 2 - 2.5k...

[Charistoph]

That may be, but if someone is still learning the game even 2000 points can be overwhelming. 5k+ is beyojust impossible, much less impractical.

[Why]

Why would a new player sit around for 8 hours pushing around massive amies of little men when he doesn't really care about the hobby that much, that sort of thing will put off a new player.

500 is the way to go for new players, just make sure to keep it fair, no deathstars, or monsters, or massed shooting just basic things like Jind_Singh's list.

[DaemonReign]

500 is the way to go for new players, just make sure to keep it fair, no deathstars, or monsters, or massed shooting just basic things like Jind_Singh's list.

This is nothing to frown at. I should moderate the somewhat comical tone of what I said earlier but adding that;
I completely understand if most players are too eager to get a game going to wait until they've massed up a real army.
Personally I really did wait until I had 2000 (might have been 2500) points of painted stuff before I played my first game in 7th.
As a kid, of course, back in 4-5th Ed I think, me and a buddy built a 10K OnG army (a bit different from 10k in this day and age I might add) so of course I wasn't really a novice, just someone who had been on a long break.

But now.. sheesh people.. I don't get out of bed for anything less than 3-4k.. and the occassions I have a chance to play those 10k games are really when the game truly shines and comes into full bloom as far as I'm concerned.

It's true of course you can't run a tournament in that size. But having experienced the balance and general glory of Big Games I sort of don't envy the people stuck in the endless debates over comps and other such issues.
Because all that jazz is simply (and utterly!) redundant, if you play big enough.

[Toshiro]

The problem I find at the moment is that Fantasy games in general are played with too small a points value. For a new person learning 500 points is enough to learn basics, ie. how to move models, measuring distances, wheeling units etc. but it won't teach tactics. For some armies such as Skaven, Orcs & Goblins, Vampire Counts, and Empire for example a 1000 point game will teach them a fair bit about the tactics for their armies, but others such as Lizardmen, Warriors Of Chaos, and Ogre Kingdoms; they learn almost nothing from a 1000 point game, with a standard 5x4 block of infantry (or equivalent) for them being 300 points or more on average they can barely get three decent units, a general, and a battle standard bearer put together for 1000 points. Compare that with Orcs & Goblins for example who can get heroes out for less than 50 points and the average unit of 20 Orcs costs 150-200 points. Sure, Chaos Warriors, Ogre Bulls or Saurus Warriors may be better in a one to one fight but to learn Warhammer you need to actually have enough units that you can use tactics, plan flank manoeuvres, block charges with weaker units and counter-charge etc. all of these things require you to have a solid 5-8 units on the board. Personally, I consider Lizardmen, Warriors Of Chaos, and Ogre Kingdoms gimped at games below 2000 points, simply unable to field enough units to use any tactics short of "run forward and hope". So, for learning the game, 2000 points is perfect, it's just enough that heavy hitter armies can actually start utilising tactics, and it's big enough that the loss of one unit to bad dice rolls doesn't end you the game. You need some give when learning the game. 2000 points is where that give really lies.

Now, after saying that, I'd actually like to add that Warhammer Fantasy is far too small scale. People play the game at 1500-3000 points on average. Rare games will reach the 4000 points level. That's not good enough, in ALL the short stories, fluff fiction, novels, the armies are much bigger. I say the games should be far bigger. With 4000-6000 being standard games, and 10,000 not being uncommon. This would give people options that they really should have but don't do because the points cost don't let them. Cavalry with a damn rank bonus outside of Bretonnians, (lets face it, when in literature do you see only 5 horsemen in a cavalry unit). Batteries of war machines, (what army goes to war with *A* bolt thrower... seriously). Multiple units of infantry all marching in formation. Actual blocks of monstrous infantry rather than just 3 random Trolls off in the corner somewhere. From lurking here it's clear there are plenty of people here who collect 10,000 point armies, some even collect as high as 20,000 points. In 40k I've heard of Battle Reports for 40,000 points and higher. Some people say those sizes are too big, they're not though. My 5000 point Warriors Of Chaos army (currently being represented by empty bases with blue-tac'd on toothpick flags on them) numbers less than 150 models, more than half of which will be Forgeworld models, and would cost me only about £600, (that's for every single model, paint, tools, glue etc). I intend to up this to a 10,000 point army, along with 2 friends who are playing Dark Elves and Empire. I personally think the extra options, the variety available, and the general scope of the game at this level will also stop the game being so much about "luck". The smaller the armies the more vital and important each dice roll becomes and the more about luck the game ends up being, naturally anything that stops the game being about luck and makes it more about skill is a good thing. Plus with special characters that frequently top 600-700 points, I think that's proof enough than this game is designed to be run at the 5000-10,000 points range.

That's my take on it as least.

In my experience, unfortunately, larger games tend to not result in much more models on the table. Sure, there will be a few more fellows on there, but most of the additional points tend to go into buffed up characters and monsters rather than a higher body count.

On topic, I think 500pts to 1000pts is adequate to learn the game on. My introduction was a buddy of mine just shoving to blocks together and explaining the core mechanics, bought my first models the next day so that worked for me!

[Urgat]

One basic hero character as the general
One unit of 20 infantry
One unit of 10 missile troops
One unit of cavalry
One warmachine

Don't worry about points until after the first two games.

-T10

What he said (well I think I'd wait the second or third game for the warmachine. He's going to ponder a lot over some stuff like how saves work in reverse even when you "add" them). Then add a wizard and let him cast, don't dispell everything he tries to cast. On the other hand, just cast magic missiles at him to start with, so he can learn the ropes of magic w/o hassle. You can razormind him to death when he's got a bit more mileage. I'd say go gradually.

Tactics come with time. For a new player just trying to learn basic rules, delving into even basic tactics can get overwhelming.

By Mork this topic is full of common sense! Should we report it? This can't be right, there's going to be a tear in reality or something.

This is nothing to frown at. I should moderate the somewhat comical tone of what I said earlier but adding that;
I completely understand if most players are too eager to get a game going to wait until they've massed up a real army.
Personally I really did wait until I had 2000 (might have been 2500) points of painted stuff before I played my first game in 7th.

The guy could totally hate the experience and just don't want to play Warhammer again. 500pts is way enough to tell if you don't like how the rules go before burning a lot of real cash in the game. Oh a side note, many of my games are at 500pts, and they're very fun, especially if you add a couple houserules and a load of terrain.