Most ridiculous thing from black library

[Athelassan]

Karak Hirn's an established hold; it even had a special character relatively recently, iirc. It's not like losing some nameless village or town, it's as if Averheim or Wurtbad or Nuln had been destroyed.

(I chose those three specifically because all of them have also been laid waste in BL books.)

[Drasanil]

Why? If a hold falls, it falls. Don't see the big deal. Whatever the fluff says, there's always, always one more hold nearby anyway. So to me losing a hold is like losing a city for the Empire.

Not really, cities in the empire can be rebuilt and repopulated in the space of a generation. Dwarf holds, so long as GW's 'dying race' policy continues, are pretty much gone for good. That's a substantial difference.

Wasn't a very large one anyway, iirc? A secondary, remote deal not too far from Barak Var, I think.

"Karak Hirn is the most important Dwarf hold established in the Black Mountains, between Tilea and the southern borders of The Empire." -Lexicanum, first sentence on the article.

Besides, it's really cheeky to fault the slayers series for not showing dwarfs in a rather good light most of the time. Oh sure they die in droves, but nothing's left when they're gone to claim victory.

Orcslayer's faults really don't have much to do with slayers or the fact that they might die in droves. The problem is a fully functional hold gets wiped off the map by a random mind controlling chaos bug, completely disconnected from any background, that will likely never get mentioned again, and that added absolutely nothing to the story or the wider background as a whole. Honestly, the story is just as bad from the orc and gobbo perspective, where you have an entire Waaagh that gets magically turned into mindless chumps and used as butt monkeys by the aforementioned random chaos bug.

[grumbaki]

Why? If a hold falls, it falls. Don't see the big deal. Whatever the fluff says, there's always, always one more hold nearby anyway. So to me losing a hold is like losing a city for the Empire. Wasn't a very large one anyway, iirc? A secondary, remote deal not too far from Barak Var, I think. And I like when dwarfs are pissed off btw (not as much as when it's elves though ). And well, us Greenskins always seem to have a warboss handy to kill for other armies to show how badass everybody else's heroes are (Goldtooth's fluff takes the cake I think), so, buuuh, at least yours always seem to die in a dignified way Besides, it's really cheeky to fault the slayers series for not showing dwarfs in a rather good light most of the time. Oh sure they die in droves, but nothing's left when they're gone to claim victory.

The difference is that in the Empire, if a city falls then it can be resettled. New humans can be born. Due to dwarven physiology, when a hold falls it becomes almost impossible to get the numbers needed to resettle it. For all intents and purposes, it is gone for good (unless the rest of Karaz Ankor, the dwarven Empire, can get a few hundred years of peace to replentish their numbers).

As for Karak Hirn, it is a major hold. It is the largest hold in the black mountains. Losing it is a bit like this...

Black Library book has a new race that nobody ever heard of before. It's background makes no sense, nor does it's powers. It destroys the province of Talabecland, including Talabheim. Not only is the province destroyed, but the ground is tainted, so that no humans can ever be born there again.

Now, you could say "Hey, it's a minor province. And Talabheim, the city of the crater, is only the second greatest fortress-city, losing it is no big deal. But can you imagine if your army is from there? You now know that any troops you have are only those out of the province at the time, and that within a generation there will be nothing left. Leaving aside that a black library book, while making up a "new and cool race" with an "uber power for Kurt Helbourg to overcome" destroyed a pretty important chunk of the Empire, it sucks for the players.

Changes to the setting on a magnitude of this should only come about through massive online campaigns.

edit: Beaten by no less than two people! Ah, the shame!

[LotlBotl]

Orcslayer is more the symptom of a larger problem.

Consider this: Every faction that has an army book (minus Dogs of War) has had new fluff added to them over time either through short story or full length novel - and a lot of it involves victories for the faction. Some hard won, some utterly unearned (looking at you, Beastmen, Skaven and Orcs somewhat), some giving credit to their opponents, others just steam rolling them without comment.

Except that you can argue that the Dwarfs have not gotten this treatment. The only real guy they have that is getting stuff done is Gotrek - and he is spending a lot of time away from the Dwarf holds.

The Skaven army books go into detail how much they are gutting the World Edge Mountains. The Thanquol books contain one of the lesser holds getting messed up hardcore without the Dwarfs giving back any meaningful retaliation (all Skaven heroes escape with no harm, no strategic losses to the Skaven what so ever). I can't even count how many greenskin bosses have smashed up Dwarf armies so badly that the Thanes ultimately decide to hide in the holds and wait for everything to be over. Vampires have done their share of taking away holds. Chaos Warriors have done their share of it. So have the Ogres. And the dragons. And I don't even know what the hell else anymore.

So, there's something seriously disproportionate going on in WHFB. Fine, there is Gotrek. Where are the beardlings who manage to slay the Drakk beyond all the odds? When is the High King going to go out like Karl Franz or Louen and destroy a clan of Skaven or WAAAGH of Orcs? What about showing how Bugman makes some goblins really regret the day they took his ale? Or the Ironfist taking the head of, I don't know, a Dragon Ogre or Galrauch? Runelords discovering some secret that Grungni left behind? Makai designing the Highwind? The engineer's guild discovering how to make small amounts of cordite?

I don't mind if some dwarfs have to die in the process, but as it is, that's all that's happening. Dwarfs dying. And it's getting really dumb at this point.

[grumbaki]

Orcslayer is more the symptom of a larger problem.

Consider this: Every faction that has an army book (minus Dogs of War) has had new fluff added to them over time either through short story or full length novel - and a lot of it involves victories for the faction. Some hard won, some utterly unearned (looking at you, Beastmen, Skaven and Orcs somewhat), some giving credit to their opponents, others just steam rolling them without comment.

Except that you can argue that the Dwarfs have not gotten this treatment. The only real guy they have that is getting stuff done is Gotrek - and he is spending a lot of time away from the Dwarf holds.

The Skaven army books go into detail how much they are gutting the World Edge Mountains. The Thanquol books contain one of the lesser holds getting messed up hardcore without the Dwarfs giving back any meaningful retaliation (all Skaven heroes escape with no harm, no strategic losses to the Skaven what so ever). I can't even count how many greenskin bosses have smashed up Dwarf armies so badly that the Thanes ultimately decide to hide in the holds and wait for everything to be over. Vampires have done their share of taking away holds. Chaos Warriors have done their share of it. So have the Ogres. And the dragons. And I don't even know what the hell else anymore.

So, there's something seriously disproportionate going on in WHFB. Fine, there is Gotrek. Where are the beardlings who manage to slay the Drakk beyond all the odds? When is the High King going to go out like Karl Franz or Louen and destroy a clan of Skaven or WAAAGH of Orcs? What about showing how Bugman makes some goblins really regret the day they took his ale? Or the Ironfist taking the head of, I don't know, a Dragon Ogre or Galrauch? Runelords discovering some secret that Grungni left behind? Makai designing the Highwind? The engineer's guild discovering how to make small amounts of cordite?

I don't mind if some dwarfs have to die in the process, but as it is, that's all that's happening. Dwarfs dying. And it's getting really dumb at this point.

I wish I could sig this.

[Satan]

Drachenfels. All of it.

[Darkminion]

Orcslayer is more the symptom of a larger problem.

Consider this: Every faction that has an army book (minus Dogs of War) has had new fluff added to them over time either through short story or full length novel - and a lot of it involves victories for the faction. Some hard won, some utterly unearned (looking at you, Beastmen, Skaven and Orcs somewhat), some giving credit to their opponents, others just steam rolling them without comment.

Except that you can argue that the Dwarfs have not gotten this treatment. The only real guy they have that is getting stuff done is Gotrek - and he is spending a lot of time away from the Dwarf holds.

The Skaven army books go into detail how much they are gutting the World Edge Mountains. The Thanquol books contain one of the lesser holds getting messed up hardcore without the Dwarfs giving back any meaningful retaliation (all Skaven heroes escape with no harm, no strategic losses to the Skaven what so ever). I can't even count how many greenskin bosses have smashed up Dwarf armies so badly that the Thanes ultimately decide to hide in the holds and wait for everything to be over. Vampires have done their share of taking away holds. Chaos Warriors have done their share of it. So have the Ogres. And the dragons. And I don't even know what the hell else anymore.

So, there's something seriously disproportionate going on in WHFB. Fine, there is Gotrek. Where are the beardlings who manage to slay the Drakk beyond all the odds? When is the High King going to go out like Karl Franz or Louen and destroy a clan of Skaven or WAAAGH of Orcs? What about showing how Bugman makes some goblins really regret the day they took his ale? Or the Ironfist taking the head of, I don't know, a Dragon Ogre or Galrauch? Runelords discovering some secret that Grungni left behind? Makai designing the Highwind? The engineer's guild discovering how to make small amounts of cordite?

I don't mind if some dwarfs have to die in the process, but as it is, that's all that's happening. Dwarfs dying. And it's getting really dumb at this point.

I totally agree on this. It is about time GW gave a respectfull turn of events to the Dwarves. Let them sally forth on a great Grudge settling Crusade, taking back lost holds and have their vengeance on the Skaven, Beastmen, Greenskins and everyone else. Marching out and crush them all under heavy boots and let the sky burn from their machines of war!

(Goes of to watch the opening scene of Gladiator, Imagining the Romans as Dwarves)

"On my signal, unleash hell!"

D...

[Urgat]

Karak Hirn's an established hold; it even had a special character relatively recently, iirc. It's not like losing some nameless village or town, it's as if Averheim or Wurtbad or Nuln had been destroyed.

(I chose those three specifically because all of them have also been laid waste in BL books.)

They've been destroyed in the armybooks too, Nuln is sacked every 50 years for instance.They have a fair about it and stuff, they raise big bonfires and welcome the enemy to a large BBQ. The invaders then leave happily with a "We've been to Nuln!" medal.

Not really, cities in the empire can be rebuilt and repopulated in the space of a generation. Dwarf holds, so long as GW's 'dying race' policy continues, are pretty much gone for good. That's a substantial difference.

That would be if GW actually kept to it. If you take the losses into account, and the "dwarfs are dying" policy, they would have disappeared ages ago already... just like the Empire, with its villages "disappearing faster than cartographers can map them" nonsense.

"Karak Hirn is the most important Dwarf hold established in the Black Mountains, between Tilea and the southern borders of The Empire." -Lexicanum, first sentence on the article.

True, I can unedrstand why this bothers you indeed. They should have picked a smaller hold, I agree.

Orcslayer's faults really don't have much to do with slayers or the fact that they might die in droves. The problem is a fully functional hold gets wiped off the map by a random mind controlling chaos bug, completely disconnected from any background, that will likely never get mentioned again, and that added absolutely nothing to the story or the wider background as a whole. Honestly, the story is just as bad from the orc and gobbo perspective, where you have an entire Waaagh that gets magically turned into mindless chumps and used as butt monkeys by the aforementioned random chaos bug.

I don't mind that. For a change it wasn't a "demon did it!" though. Does it have to always be a demon or a sorcerer or some undead horror? Orcs and goblins are always turned into "butt monkeys" in the fluff. And it doesn't have to be BL books, GW likes it just as much.

The only real guy they have that is getting stuff done is Gotrek - and he is spending a lot of time away from the Dwarf holds.
[...]
Fine, there is Gotrek. Where are the beardlings who manage to slay the Drakk beyond all the odds?

But... no. It's time to give Gotrek a rest. Have people actually read the slayer books? Who kills the blood thirster? Who kills the vampire? Who kills the dragon? Well, it's not Gotrek (in the case of the BT, it's actually him alright, he gives the finishing blow after a whole dwarf army, a dwarf king and Felix both using an ancestor weapon have done all the job and Gotrek spends most of the fight knocked out. Can you say "killsteal"?). In Nathan Long's book, sure, it's Gotrek the one man army. In King's books, he always ends up short. Someone else always gets to the big gribbly first. It's Snorri (vampire), it's Felix (dragon), it's not Gotrek. I find it weird how people can miss that when it's clearly done on purpose to make Gotrek's failure even more evident after each book (well Long missed it too obviously, so i can't blame you). Anyway, I do agree with you, dwarfs need more "heroics" (which is ironic considering GW has always been fond of their dwarfs, their kinda iconic of Warhammer). Hopefully, the new scale introduced by GW might bring some changes to the fluff, and make them out less as a dying race, and more as an adaptive one.

[CommanderCax]

Not really, cities in the empire can be rebuilt and repopulated in the space of a generation. Dwarf holds, so long as GW's 'dying race' policy continues, are pretty much gone for good. That's a substantial difference.

Well, I have to disagree. The background of the Dwarfs describes a recent notion of reconquering lost Holds. Karak Azgal is sort of reconquered by the Dwarfs (at least the surface) as are parts of Karak Eight Peaks. So in my view, the Dawi are more active and vigorous to resettle lost Holds, than in the last few millennia...

[Craze_b0i]

Well, I have to disagree. The background of the Dwarfs describes a recent notion of reconquering lost Holds. Karak Azgal is sort of reconquered by the Dwarfs (at least the surface) as are parts of Karak Eight Peaks. So in my view, the Dawi are more active and vigorous to resettle lost Holds, than in the last few millennia...

They exploited the fighting between goblin-skaven to reestablish an outpost at Eight Peaks, but they are controlling a tiny enclave of the entire hold, permanently cut off and under siege. Meanwhile the Karak Azgal presence is again just an outpost on the surface, the hold itself is still overrun by monsters. If you look at recent background they are still 90% on the back foot getting invaded.

I too would like to see dwarfs reassert themselves but so far it hasn't happened. And given that we are less than 1 year away from SOC they are soon going to be busy for a while fending off chaos.

[LotlBotl]

But... no. It's time to give Gotrek a rest. Have people actually read the slayer books? Who kills the blood thirster? Who kills the vampire? Who kills the dragon? Well, it's not Gotrek (in the case of the BT, it's actually him alright, he gives the finishing blow after a whole dwarf army, a dwarf king and Felix both using an ancestor weapon have done all the job and Gotrek spends most of the fight knocked out. Can you say "killsteal"?).

All of those were written more than ten years ago dude (not counting Giantslayer because Gotrek does kill the giant and one of the sorcerers there, although Red Hand's Daughter does have Gotrek needing no small amount of help), and as you said, Nathan Long changed up everything since.

And it's been basically a case since then of everyone taking a shot at beating up the Dwarf Pinata.

Anyway, I do agree with you, dwarfs need more "heroics" (which is ironic considering GW has always been fond of their dwarfs, their kinda iconic of Warhammer).

Oh absolutely. The thing that really gets me is how every other faction has their major characters actually doing things, even as an aside. Tyrion, Teclis, Karl, Kurt, Morglum, Thanquol, Lohkir, Greaseus, Settra, Kroq-Gar, even Mannfred for crying out loud! (even if it was dumb)

When's the last time the White Dwarf came out and crossed out a few grudges? Who has Thorgrim actually killed since the Great War now that the Nemesis Crown isn't in the timeline? How about, I don't know, a Dwarf ranger nailing a Clan Eshin assassin to his door, or finishing off a Wood Elf Lord?

[giant stegadon]

Adding to the Dying Dwarves- I think a large problem for GW's Dwarves is that they seem to represent a world changing and what happens to a civilization that refuses to. If they do use their superior technology & tinkering potential then they just kinda turn into The Empire with a lower birth rate. I think it's Thanquol's Doom an engineer creates automated machine guns that do a great job of mowing down Skaven without risk to Dwarf life. So even if Dwarves start using that sort of modern technology to help their numbers, would people want that in Fantasy? On the other hand BL & GW could do a better job of portraying Dwarves being able to outright slaughter Skaven slaves without eventually getting overran every single time. I remember when I was beginning to read all the WHFB army books I realized every one ends with a "and now X are ready to go out & kill everyone." The Dwarves seemed to end with "Atleast they all aren't dead yet."

[Urgat]

If Dwarfs had fixed sentry guns, i certainly wouldn't cry over it. They're there in Warhammer Online too, by the way ( see at 1.38 for instance), or the one next to the engineer there or there. They fit alright enough for me.

[Scammel]

Heh, no-one here has anything close to the most ridiculous thing from the Black Library. It gets a Get Out Of Jail Free for being cool and also a spin-off, but the Blood Bowl series features undead Albion players such as Bavid Deckham, telepathic Black Orcs and, also, get this:

A Dwarf Wizard.

[Athelassan]

I think Dwarf wizards were only outlawed in around late 3rd edition; before then you get a few mentions. I think that, as you say, Blood Bowl has to be given a pass on this, because being stupid is basically the point.

[Sheena Easton]

I think Dwarf wizards were only outlawed in around late 3rd edition; before then you get a few mentions. I think that, as you say, Blood Bowl has to be given a pass on this, because being stupid is basically the point.

Dwarfs still had Wizards right up to the change from 3rd to 4th when they were removed completely and then Runesmiths were introduced in the 4th Ed Army Book. I remember one of the first White Dwarfs I ever read had a rather nice Dwarf Wizard model in it and I could never find it as it wasn't in the catalogue. I was annoyed. Then decided I much preferred Goblins and got over it.

[Craze_b0i]

The Runesmith special rules in 4th edition are worth a read, simply for comedy value. Under the 'special rules' is a long paragraph that basically say one thing: this is not a wizard.

[Lockjaw]

this might not be the most ridiculous thing, but it was the most annoying.
reading the slayer series, I'd swear we get at least one in every 2 pages where Felix is going on about how truly 'alien' gotrek is. it's like they have to hammer it in and remind you that for whatever reason, warhammer dwarves are fantasy xenos or something.

personally, I don't see what's so strange and alien about drinking, and being in a constant state of pissed off anyway, but that's just me.



Also, Malus, I'm a big fan of D&D drow, and read almost every book WOTC put out with drow, but Malus and the dark elves, just reading the first book made me want to throw it at the wall myself, but I held out to the end of the book. then never bothered reading the rest.

[Mr.Sparkle]

Drachenfels. All of it.

Say whaa? Man, I loved that book when it was released, one of the first warhammer books I read(dont think they were black library then), that, Beasts in Velvet etc.

Not read them since though, so not sure how they have stood the test of time.

[Horus38]

Orcslayer is more the symptom of a larger problem.

Consider this: Every faction that has an army book (minus Dogs of War) has had new fluff added to them over time either through short story or full length novel - and a lot of it involves victories for the faction. Some hard won, some utterly unearned (looking at you, Beastmen, Skaven and Orcs somewhat), some giving credit to their opponents, others just steam rolling them without comment.

Except that you can argue that the Dwarfs have not gotten this treatment. The only real guy they have that is getting stuff done is Gotrek - and he is spending a lot of time away from the Dwarf holds.

The Skaven army books go into detail how much they are gutting the World Edge Mountains. The Thanquol books contain one of the lesser holds getting messed up hardcore without the Dwarfs giving back any meaningful retaliation (all Skaven heroes escape with no harm, no strategic losses to the Skaven what so ever). I can't even count how many greenskin bosses have smashed up Dwarf armies so badly that the Thanes ultimately decide to hide in the holds and wait for everything to be over. Vampires have done their share of taking away holds. Chaos Warriors have done their share of it. So have the Ogres. And the dragons. And I don't even know what the hell else anymore.

So, there's something seriously disproportionate going on in WHFB. Fine, there is Gotrek. Where are the beardlings who manage to slay the Drakk beyond all the odds? When is the High King going to go out like Karl Franz or Louen and destroy a clan of Skaven or WAAAGH of Orcs? What about showing how Bugman makes some goblins really regret the day they took his ale? Or the Ironfist taking the head of, I don't know, a Dragon Ogre or Galrauch? Runelords discovering some secret that Grungni left behind? Makai designing the Highwind? The engineer's guild discovering how to make small amounts of cordite?

I don't mind if some dwarfs have to die in the process, but as it is, that's all that's happening. Dwarfs dying. And it's getting really dumb at this point.

Wow, I didn't realize the dwarfs were such the punching bag of WHFB, must have gotten lumped into the Eldars category for the "winning in fluff".