Eternal Warrior and Feel No Pain

[Perth]

If a model with Eternal Warrior ignores the Instant Death rule, and Instant Death is the only way to negate Feel No Pain, does that mean a unit with EW and FNP will get to roll FNP on everything, or will attacks that would normally cause ID due to high strength still negate FNP?

[Neckutter]

probably needs to be FAQd to be sure, but im pretty sure that 'double your toughness attacks' still surpass FNP, even though you dont suffer the instant death.

[Rated_lexxx]

Yeah there was a big thread about awhile ago. I think most people thought ID still denies FNP against something with EW, but there was a good chunk of people think EW will always let you get FNP

My thought is ID attacks deny FNP even if u have EW. It's still a ID attack that you are immune to

[Perth]

I see, thanks. The unit that caused me to even notice the conflict was Lysander shielding a Blood Angel Sternguard squad with a Sang Priest.

[The_Klobb_Maniac]

you don't get FnP:
-FnP is denied by something causing "Instant Death" on an unsaved wound
-Eternal warrior makes you immune from the *effects* of instant death (to quote)

The only way Eternal Warrior kicks in is if you would suffer instant death! It can only block the effect (i.e. losing all your wounds.) To know whether you'll suffer instant death or not in Eternal Warrior terms, you have to have already failed FnP. When you fail it Instant death says "HEY, you got more wounds!" and Eternal warrior is all like "DERR REJECTED FOO!"

Think of it this way; you always "get" FnP, but you autofail it if you suffer a wound that lxl<-|||!!|!=>*inflicts*<=|||!!|!->lxl instant death.

-Did the wound inflict instant death? Yes. no FnP
-Did you ignore the *effect* of instant death? Yes, because of Eternal warrior.


Let us make it very clear that ignoring FnP is NOT an *effect* of instant death, it's an unrelated byproduct.

[bobafett012]

If your character is immune to ID via EW, then how can he not get his FnP? I think the rules are pretty clear on this one. eternal warrior makes you immune to the effects of instant death, and FnP allows you to roll on any attacks that don't cause you ID, so there is no attacks that can cause an EW character to be ID'd, hence he gets his FnP, so imo, he would have gotten his FnP rolls against any and all attacks.

[Perth]

I think the model keeps FNP because of the order of the events.

Model takes an ID causing hit -> Attacker rolls a 2+ -> Eternal Warrior negates ID -> FNP is rolled -> saving throw.

[CrownAxe]

FNP is ignored by attacks that cause ID, not from attacks that you suffer ID from. Eternal Warrior has no effect on it

[The_Klobb_Maniac]

@boba
Because he's not immune to ID, he's immune to the *effects* of ID, and ignoring FnP is not *not* NOT an effect of ID; it is a byproduct. I can prove this by having you look up Instant Death, which will say nothing of FnP in it's effect and thusly EW will ignore only the effects of ID listed there and not the byproducts of the rule referenced elsewhere.

@perth
I'll make you a deal perth; when you can find somewhere in the rules where it lists the orders of effects of rules [for now I'll assume you went with.. alphabetical..?] then I'll believe your hypothesis. Worst case scenario I can make your argument but backwards. You check ID first and then FnP and then EW. Oh jeas; looks like we're at an impasse! Thus your logic is inconsistent, and thusly unreliable for determining rules!

Until you can show me such an order-based-logical-system in the book that tells us when to apply EW I think we'll have to look elsewhere.

[TheDoctor]

I'm of the opinion that it does, however, until/if it gets FAQ'ed

-Call/email tourney advisor ahead of time to get a ruling
-Discuss this issue with your opponent before the game, if ruling cannot be determined, rock/paper/scissors, roll a dice, or get a 3rd party to come over and make a determination.


Also, Perth, the issue that you mentioned, the person using Lysander/Sanguinary Priest was either blatantly cheating or did not read the Blood Angels FAQ, which states that only models chosen from the Blood Angels codex benefit from the Priest's special rules

[mishari26]

I'd say you get to roll FNP because:

- FNP says: "Note that Feel No Pain rolls cannot be made against unsaved wounds that inflict Instant Death."

now if a lascannon hits a Lonewolf and he suffers a wound from it, does that wound qualify for the above statement?

The question needs to answered by asking another question 1st.. does a lascannon wound always inflict ID? not really.. it only does so on T4 or bellow..

so if the ID on this wound is conditional, maybe there are other conditions that must be satisfied before the wound can be said to "inflict ID".

Here's where Eternal Warrior comes in.. it states: "A model with this special rule is immune to the effects of Instant Death"

So the lascannon wound fails to cause ID on the Lonewolf because of this..

Therefor the wound does NOT "inflict instant death".

Therefor the FNP exception does NOT kick in.

Therefor the Lonewolf GETs his FNP roll. imho.

[the_picto]

I fail to see how denying FnP is not an effect of the instant death rule, just because it isn't specifically listed in the instant death rule itself. One of the effects of a wound causing instant death is that you can't take FnP against it. Eternal warriors ignores the effects of instant death.

[Azeroth133]

Just becuse your immune to its effects dosent mean it dosent still inflict the status, You just dont suffer the effects.

Eternal Warrior does not make you able to take FNP saves agenst attacks that would normally cause instant death.

[the_picto]

Just becuse your immune to its effects dosent mean it dosent still inflict the status, You just dont suffer the effects.

Eternal Warrior does not make you able to take FNP saves agenst attacks that would normally cause instant death.

Sure it does. A model with eternal warrior is "immune to the effects of instant death", one of the effects of instant death is that "Feel No Pain rolls cannot be made against unsaved wounds that inflict Instant Death".

[MajorWesJanson]

Sure it does. A model with eternal warrior is "immune to the effects of instant death", one of the effects of instant death is that "Feel No Pain rolls cannot be made against unsaved wounds that inflict Instant Death".

No, as "Feel No Pain rolls cannot be made against unsaved wounds that inflict Instant Death" is not part of the Instant Death rule. It is specifically part of the Eternal Warrior rule.

Run it in order of how things happen.
A model is hit with an unsaved wound that inflicts Instant Death. Eternal Warrior rule says the EW save is now negated.
Eternal Warrior now triggers to make the model immune to the effects of instant death.

If an ID hit was not inflicted (which is the requirement for EW to go away), there would be no effects of Instant Death, and thus no need for Eternal Warrior to trigger.

[Pawn of Decay]

I see, thanks. The unit that caused me to even notice the conflict was Lysander shielding a Blood Angel Sternguard squad with a Sang Priest.

Regardless of the outcome of the rules query, this situation is wrong. Lysander would not get Feel No Pain as he is not a Blood Angel. Please reread the Blood Chalice rules.

[Losing Command]

Eternal Warrior just means you don't lose extra wounds when taking an unsaved wound that causes Instant Death. SO the wound you take still inflict instant death, and you can't do Feel no Pain against it, but you don't lose all your wounds after that.

[Pawn of Decay]

That isn't actually what Eternal Warrior means. Eternal Warrior means that you do not suffer the effects of instant death. Neither side of the argument disagree with that statement. The argument is over what is an effect of instant death. Is the negation of Feel No Pain and effect of instant death. If you think that is the case you will be for the allowance of Eternal Warriors getting FNP from wounds that should cause instant death. If you believe that FNP not being allowed due to instant death is not an effect of instand death, then you will be in the camp that thinks Eternal Warriors do not get FNP.

[Infidel]

I would say yes it ignores FNP, because Eternal Warrior and FNP are two unrelated rules. The effect of instant death is specifically:

...it is reduced to 0 Wounds and removed as a casualty.

That is the explicit effect of Instant Death, the part Eternal Warrior allows you to ignore. Eternal Warrior does not change the nature of the wound, it simply allows the model to ignore the "reduced to 0 wound" effect. Feel No Pain being bypassed by Instant Death wounds is an unrelated interaction.

I would argue this is the sequence with which the attack is resolved:

Wound causes ID > Failed save = model suffers ID > FNP cannot be taken against ID wound > Eternal Warrior allow you to take a single wound rather than have it reduced to zero.

[The_Klobb_Maniac]

A succinct representation of the argument Pawn.

So, I would kindly point all of the "You still get FnP" camp to read the instant death section. When you read that make a quick note of all the things in there that Eternal Warrior will ignore; because that's what it does. Then you can read FnP and check your list. When you check your list you will be quite sore at this exercise.