Chapterhouse vs. GW studios - Summary Judgement called

[gunmnky]

Yes because everybody knows that gwPLC invented tabletop wargaming

Do yourself a favour and never read Robert A. Heinleins 1959 novel Starship Troopers, because you will evidently come to the conclussion that it rips off gwPLCs' Space Marines.

I probably read that before you were born

I think the point (which is probably misplaced in a thread about copyright) is that GW is to a large extent responsible for the level of popularity that exists for fantasy-based wargames today, especially for those people in the UK, due to their ubiquitous high-street presence.
There is nothing particularly unique about a business springing up specifically to complement other people's businesses, or feed off their success. Many companies make cases/headphones/accessories for iDevices, after-market parts to go in specific cars, fancier handles to go with Gillette razors, darts to go in Nerf guns...

This is exactly the point I was making. GW didn't invent anything at all that it's using, but it did make it extremely popular. I would say FoW and all the newer systems would only have around 1% of the business if GW hadn't paved the way and created a lot of interest for the hobby. The fact that 99% of the people who play those games also play (or played) a GW game is pretty self evident.

You do realise GW don't have any rights to the image of a fist? You do understand that, yes?

No, but if they make a fist, they own it. You can draw one similar, but not photocopy or otherwise reproduce that same fist. However, if you make one that looks the same, there is nothing they can do about it. Its like movies - You can make your own version of the matrix, but you can't make 100 copies of the original and sell them on a street corner.

As long as CHS is doing their own masters, and not recasting, it's going to be very, very hard to get them on copyright violations for ultramarines, blood angels, space wolves. Those symbols are just too generic for GW to have any kind of claim to them.

Yeah, talk to me like I'm stupid. That's really how you make a great argument.

GW may not own copyright of a fist. That is correct. But that particular fist they do. the wrist part is identical or at the very least too similar.

CHS could have done a fist that was sufficiently different. It wouldn't be difficult. But it's a copy. They even painted it black on a yellow field. I mean come on!

PS: it's not very good so I'd rather get a GW sculpt anyway. I won't be alone. I doubt GW have much to worry about lost sales. However they cannot be seen to be allow other companies to muscle in on their copyright lest the really big fish take notice and seek a share of the Market. Like Hasbro for instance. They don't have the finances to take them on in court. That's the real reason that they are as litigious as they are.

The issue at hand is that GW claims a copyright and trademark on everything in existence. When you can't make a halberd or put chevrons on your model without getting sued for copyright violations, then it's time to knock them off their high horse. They have to accept the fact that they are no longer the only company in this industry and that people are going to make aftermarket parts. If they weren't greedy cavemen, they would have already figured out a way to license production. They could have prevented this massive train wreck of a lawsuit, they wouldn't have to make unrealistic staffing choices in a desperate attempt to save money, they would be getting free advertising, and their team could be focusing on core models that need to be replaced. There is a point at which you are no longer protecting your IP, but trying to control the market through litigation and threats. This is no different than Microsoft gaining a monopoly by intentionally writing code to prohibit competing software from running on Windows.

Ultimately, there is much more afoot than even this lawsuit. Several companies started making digital rule books and interactive army lists that come with their gaming system. GW is falling rapidly behind the curve and it scares them that they are losing market shares to technology they can't comprehend.

[The bearded one]

http://www.ralparthaeurope.co.uk/020...-6-p-1832.html

So very rare I bought some back in the early 1990s from Ral Partha.

And similarly I found white lion models as far back as 1994, and elves with axes in the late 1980's, but a big axe does not a lion-hunting lumberjack make Anyway, the point wasn't that they're unique due to their axes, but that their nature goes against the stereotypical character of the high elves, as they're comparatively rough and coarse, raw manly big muscled lumberjacks. Not effeminate, poetry reciting, harp-playing, arrogant bow-wielding spear&sword sissies.

[Omniassiah]

This is exactly the point I was making. GW didn't invent anything at all that it's using, but it did make it extremely popular. I would say FoW and all the newer systems would only have around 1% of the business if GW hadn't paved the way and created a lot of interest for the hobby. The fact that 99% of the people who play those games also play (or played) a GW game is pretty self evident.

That is locational at best, Almost definitely in the UK not so much in the US. Battletech and Warzone had a bigger impact in a lot of the areas around me then GW games ever had to the point where it is hard to find someone from that era that didn't play one of those 2 before hand. in fact GW got the biggest boost in my area because they existed when Heartbreaker games screwed up the second edition of Warzone. if it wouldn't have been for that I would have never gone past my demo of 2nd Ed 40k. GW had managed in my part of the US to positioned at the right time with the collapse of FASA and Heartbreaker but I would say that would be more on accident then purposefully.

[gunmnky]

That is locational at best, Almost definitely in the UK not so much in the US. Battletech and Warzone had a bigger impact in a lot of the areas around me then GW games ever had to the point where it is hard to find someone from that era that didn't play one of those 2 before hand. in fact GW got the biggest boost in my area because they existed when Heartbreaker games screwed up the second edition of Warzone. if it wouldn't have been for that I would have never gone past my demo of 2nd Ed 40k. GW had managed in my part of the US to positioned at the right time with the collapse of FASA and Heartbreaker but I would say that would be more on accident then purposefully.

Warseer is location neutral. How much of it is dedicated to GW and how much for each other company? You simply can't argue with the fact that having hundreds of stores with a big space marine out front attracts more attention than a greasy shack with neck beards. Most people who go into an indie store either know what they want or they are buying something for a person who does. In all the years I've been in indie stores, nobody has ever walked in and said "what is this?" Playing at GW, it happend at least 4 - 10 times per day.

[Reinholt]

Warseer is location neutral. How much of it is dedicated to GW and how much for each other company? You simply can't argue with the fact that having hundreds of stores with a big space marine out front attracts more attention than a greasy shack with neck beards. Most people who go into an indie store either know what they want or they are buying something for a person who does. In all the years I've been in indie stores, nobody has ever walked in and said "what is this?" Playing at GW, it happend at least 4 - 10 times per day.

Warseer might be location neutral, but hobbyists are not. Also, as a point of fact, GW does not have and has never had "hundreds" of stores in the US. Tens of stores, yes. Hundreds, no.

Similarly, I do agree that putting a store somewhere will, if the store is correctly run, increase sales of GW product in the area. However, that's not the key question that GW should be asking. What they should be asking is:

- How much of a gain in sales will be achieved and how much will the store cost me to achieve that?
- Are there other more profitable ways that I could market and distribute my product?

I don't think (given the geographical dispersion of the US) that it's clear stores are the answer. Maybe they are. Maybe they aren't. It would also be nice if we had a well run retail chain in the US so we could actually evaluate the strategy, as any strategy fails if your actual execution is crap.

[Omniassiah]

Warseer is location neutral. How much of it is dedicated to GW and how much for each other company? You simply can't argue with the fact that having hundreds of stores with a big space marine out front attracts more attention than a greasy shack with neck beards. Most people who go into an indie store either know what they want or they are buying something for a person who does. In all the years I've been in indie stores, nobody has ever walked in and said "what is this?" Playing at GW, it happend at least 4 - 10 times per day.

Besides what reinholt said remember that gw is the only mainstream mini-company with out a forum. If I want to talk FoW I go to their forums for example. And even in the us a gamers location matters the closest GW store is at least 2hours away from me.

[iamfanboy]

You know, I've brought it up before, but...

GW's store system is colonialism, pure and simple.

The majority of stores (50%) are concentrated in England, which earns 30% of their income. It's the rest of the world, the places without stores, that support their Britishcentric store system. When GW closed down half the American stores, their profit quadrupled without lessening their income - something to be learned from that, no? And North America is just as much of their income as England is.

When I first started playing, the nearest Games Workshop store was eight hundred miles away, or if you prefer, 1300 kilometers. The entirety of the English isle, from south Wales to northern Scotland, is not as far as the distance I would have driven to play the game in a GW store.

They have never attempted to open a store in the state I started playing in, and the closest store to my home town is now a mere four hundred miles away, or 650 kilometers if that makes it easier. Yet in my home state GW is still... well, it isn't popular any MORE, because people have overwhelmingly switched to PP and Wyrd.


To say that the store system is good is to be... well... parochial.

[t-tauri]

Getting very off topic now. If you want to discuss GW stores policy please open a new thread.

[Odin]

To be fair, that is sort of the point. They would remain a potential problem.

While I disagree with the "Bring them down" sentiment - they could be brought down to Earth regarding the scope and breadth of their copyright/trademarks. As Max Jet has pointed out, other companies are also hit with GW legal posturing and normally they fold like a wet paper bag. If you like a general artistic style (something which can not be protected) but don't like the company who is the primary purveyor of that style...and they stifle competition through legal tactics - you are left with few options.

I'd imagine they generally fold because they know they would lose, because legally they are in the wrong. But I guess we'll find out!

[Omniassiah]

I'd imagine they generally fold because they know they would lose, because legally they are in the wrong. But I guess we'll find out!

To bring you up-to-date with modern Large vs small company legal tactics, I'll explain why that statement is quite often false. They fold purely because of cost, Fighting one of these battles can easily reach the hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees. For a company that may only profit 10-20k in a year, while they may win the case they would have lost their company in the process. If CHS had not gotten Pro-Bono legal council they would have more and likely had to concede too. It is why Pro-Bono representation was started to avoid a larger/richer entity from forcing smaller/poorer entity to close its doors not from legal reason but simply being able to bury them under legal bills.

[gunmnky]

To bring you up-to-date with modern Large vs small company legal tactics, I'll explain why that statement is quite often false. They fold purely because of cost, Fighting one of these battles can easily reach the hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees. For a company that may only profit 10-20k in a year, while they may win the case they would have lost their company in the process. If CHS had not gotten Pro-Bono legal council they would have more and likely had to concede too. It is why Pro-Bono representation was started to avoid a larger/richer entity from forcing smaller/poorer entity to close its doors not from legal reason but simply being able to bury them under legal bills.

And this kind of legal posturing can end in a class action lawsuit against the company. For huge companies like Microsoft and Bank of America, these are fine. There is no way GW can afford a $400 million settlement.

There is always a bigger fish.

[Omniassiah]

And this kind of legal posturing can end in a class action lawsuit against the company. For huge companies like Microsoft and Bank of America, these are fine. There is no way GW can afford a $400 million settlement.

There is always a bigger fish.

And it is unlikely that they would be awarded it. First, you have to prove that it was completely unsubstantiated legal claims or a monopoly on the industry to get awarded, which even in this case there is some of it that is clearly CHS doing wrong, some that is clearly GW doing wrong, and then some that is really grey and could go either way and GW is far from a monopoly on the miniature gaming world. So it would not be guaranteed that a class action lawsuit would succeed, add to that they would still need to find representation to file the class action which isn't always free or result dependent. Class actions do go after the big fish and frankly in the scheme of things GW just isn't one of them.

[t-tauri]

Posts removed. Please post in accordance with the guidelines.

[gunmnky]

And it is unlikely that they would be awarded it. First, you have to prove that it was completely unsubstantiated legal claims or a monopoly on the industry to get awarded, which even in this case there is some of it that is clearly CHS doing wrong, some that is clearly GW doing wrong, and then some that is really grey and could go either way and GW is far from a monopoly on the miniature gaming world. So it would not be guaranteed that a class action lawsuit would succeed, add to that they would still need to find representation to file the class action which isn't always free or result dependent. Class actions do go after the big fish and frankly in the scheme of things GW just isn't one of them.

This is completely wrong. Bank of America was hit because they applied deposits after withdraws, forcing people to overdraw their account on purpose for the overdraft fees. This was not illegal at the time, but a judge ruled that it was during the trial. I'm not referring to this exact case, as I said "this kind of legal posturing" not "this specific case". It generally takes years before a class action suit is finally started. But if lawyers smell money, they'll come like sharks. Of that you can be sure.

But when you have an entire country like Australia that is being purposely singled out for outrageous prices due to "conversion rates," and then GW blackmails retailers to prevent them from selling to Aus specifically to keep the prices high... yeah, that's when countries send trade commissions after you and stop your products from entering the country. That's also something Australian retailers might be able to form a class action over (depending on their laws). Heck, blackmailing retailers may even be illegal in the UK.

My point is, GW is doing a lot of stuff that they can get into big do-do for. The fact that war gaming is pretty much off the radar is the only thing that is saving their bacon. If they get just a little big larger, or enough people get angry, then yes they'll get hit. It doesn't matter that they don't make $50 billion a year in profits. A smaller firm will start it for only $5 - $10 million instead of the usual $25 - $50 million in legal fees.

[arthurfallz]

http://img.tapatalk.com/56a12ab2-d9ec-adf8.jpg

This is a pad they haven't released yet but the fist is clearly exactly the same as the Imperial Fist symbol. Apart from the fact it's not sculpted as well. It's not even an attempt at something original. Clearly they've learned nothing.

It's House Steiner from Battletech to me.

[gunmnky]

It's House Steiner from Battletech to me.

VS

Hmmm...

[Scalebug]

Heck, blackmailing retailers may even be illegal in the UK.

Calling it blackmail doesn't make it so...

(not that I can say I understand what Australia have done to deserve their treatment, but still...)


So, that new fist-pad... I'd say this is what Chapterhouse should have stuck to from the beginning, instead of copying existing designs. A fist is a fist, and this one, with the hammer, the angles of the fingers, the style of the wrist, the weird green scales around it, is clearly a distinct design from the Imperial/crimson fist one (either the 2d drawn symbol in it's various versions over editions, or the physical pieces actually released), while still being useful for people who want to paint up those chapters.

Had they stuck to doing these things, this whole mess would not have happen, GW was not going after companies for doing 'compatible' generic pieces, they went after use of their imagery, and Chapterhouse decided to not stop doing that, and instead called in lawyers. For that, and even more marketing kits for models GW had not yet released yet but were in the rules, they do not deserve the support they get from the interwebs community...

Third party stuff in general is awesome, companies like mantic and Avatars of war doing their thing, or big realistic competition from Privateer Press and such, all this and adds to the hobby, but coat-tail riding like that is just lack of common morality, and have just harmed the game as we are now going to see a slimming down of units in armybooks/codexes to what they can quickly put out on the shelves...

Now Chapterhouse can't be all to blame for that thouggh, the spoiled generation of games complaining over units not being released yet is a bigger part, but still... Back in the days, we knew how to convert and work around things to make units and options in the list not yet out, and the lists were better for it...

[shelfunit.]

The thing is though, that fist is representative of what they have been doing. Nothing they have done is a "copy" in the same way that fist is not a "copy". Yet again there seems to be almost a willfull ignorance over what the word "copy" means. A copy (in this context) is a "to the letter" identical replication. Nothing CHS has done has been this on anything that is protectable. If something is not protectable, then it is fair game to "copy" it. You might not like it, but that does not make it any less legal.

[angora]

But when you have an entire country like Australia that is being purposely singled out for outrageous prices due to "conversion rates," and then GW blackmails retailers to prevent them from selling to Aus specifically to keep the prices high... yeah, that's when countries send trade commissions after you and stop your products from entering the country. That's also something Australian retailers might be able to form a class action over (depending on their laws). Heck, blackmailing retailers may even be illegal in the UK.

It's not just GW - we get shafted by the likes of Ikea, Software companies (Games etc) and many clothing lines. A new release PC game is $90 here (60 GBP or $95US)

[selfconstrukt]

Won't make a difference what the judgement is.

In the eyes of many people, the names in evidence are "rats". Even people who could care less about GW or Chapterhouse would be inclined to hammer those people simply because they "turned Chapterhouse in".

Keep in mind that many of us worked with those people for many years and know them well, myself included. My disdain for many at GW is formed by years of working with them and seeing their lack of integrity and honesty in person.