Most useless units

[Maoriboy007]

Dwarf Flame Cannon. No contest.

We recently played a game with 4 allied armies featuring nominally useless units (each "bad"army list randomly distributed between players), and the Dwarf Army featured a dwarf Flame cannon that wasn't that bad, its range is pathetic, but it easily wiped out half a unit of Ghouls in one hit..
Other notables were a flock of 9 bat swarms that did well (mainly due to jammy 5+ wound rolls) a DE sorceress on a manticore with the ring of Hotek that survived until the end of the game, 2 Dwarf and 2 DE Bolthrowers that among other things Killed a Giant and a Flying Carpet Wight King BSB in less than 5 shots, a Black Coach that dominated an entire flank, and a non Thorek Anvil that severely injured a Terrorgeist and held the Dwarven line until the end, especially with the charging ability.

[Chain]

Anything worse or as bad as Tullaris.

Repeater bolt throwers should have a price drop to about 70 points possibly get back it's third wound to.

Kroxigors should cost less or get a stats boost.

Glade Riders, Warhawk riders among other Wood elf units need improvements

[Zephel]

Repeater Bolt Throwers - Cost is too high, only 2 crew.
Shadow Warriors - Terribly expensive for a very under-performing unit when compared to all of the competition (look at shades in comparison).
Ellyrian Reavers - really surprised I didn't see this anywhere. SPECIAL choice for an overly expensive fast cav with bows? Yeah that's pretty bad.
Ushabti - It's not that the strength of the unit is bad, it's that is suffers from ONE wound a TURN that it can gain. THAT is absolutely horrible. You change it to one per a spell/augment then we can talk, or d3 vs d6. Or just bloody make them cheaper.
Most mounted characters on monsters - This just needs tweaking. Lotta points for a huge liability just to look cool.

That's most of my experience so far, I'm sure there are more.

[Morax]

There are disadvantages that accompany those higher strength hits. Helblasters and Pigeon Bombs have a significantly shorter range which makes them far more vulnerable as they need to be closer to the enemy to even be used (the mortar having twice the range of either of the other two). Also if an Engineer uses his Pigeon Bomb doesn't he forfeit the use of his Master of Ballistics rule?

Yes he loses the ability to use his master of ballistics rule. If he is equiped with Pidgeon Bombs then he is used as an independant warmachine, not warmachine support. At 42.5 slaves thats about right for a mobile small template mortar.

Someone over here did the mathhammer. Without an engineer a Helblaster scores an average 4.2 hits, 8.5 with one. So against most large infantry units (which are rather typical these days and the mainstay of most armies), the Helbaster will not make much of a dent, scoring, using the averages, 2 to 6 wounds. The Pigeon Bombs will only score 9-12 kills if every single hit wounds, with the average being closer to 6 to 9 wounds against t3 troops and 4-6 wounds against t4 troops before armour saves.

Pidgeon Bombs should hit 21 models on a 20mm base unit. That comes to 14 wounds before saves on t3 and 10.5 wounds on t4. That is assuming you hit with them of course. Against 25mm bases you get 9 hits and your numbers drop dramaticly.

Determining the average number of hits for a mortar is a bit problematic because it scatters, but it has a much better statistical chance of scoring a maximum number of hits than a hellbaster. The pigeon bombs have the same likelihood of hitting the enemy at all, as the mortar does of scoring it's maximum number of hits, less chance if the mortar is accompanied by an engineer. Even if the mortar only kills up to a third of what it hits, that is still in the region of 9 kills, which compares favourably with the the other artillery pieces.
Plus if you have such a problem with the low strength of a mortar consider using them alongside the Flaming Sword, Withering or Soulblight spells.

As for 'earning it's points back' considerations such as panic tests and player psychology must be taken into account, rather than just outright kills. Besides a major benefit to a firebase, not reflected in direct damage output, is influencing your opponent's movement. This is not about whether the mortar is the best or worst artillery the Empire has, but whether or not it is useful, as I have demonstrated it is far from useless.

I am more than happy to continue using units that I can use effectively. Plus pistoliers can be used for harassing larger enemy units, killing smaller units or psychologically undermining your opponent, not just as redirectors.

The problem I have with the mortar is that the Pidgeoneer is the point value you would want for the job of thinning incomming units down. Sure the mortar can still be used but it's just not as good as other options.

The Pistoliers on the other hand are tasked for 3 jobs as a fast cavalry unit with a shooting attack, speed bump, harassment, and misdirection.

They are too expensive to be used as a speed bump in a standard formation, unit of 5 with either a musician, unit of 5 with unit champion and repeater pistol, or a combination of the two. 100+ points is just too much to throw away to stop a unit from moving for a turn when you have other options for doing the same job for less than 25% of that.

Harassment, here the pistoliers under preform instead of being flat useless. 12 shots hitting on 5's and wounding on 3's, best case senario, gets you 2.7 wounds before saves. What unit is that supposed to be threatening to? Even warmachine hunters the likes of great eagels will just ignore that and get on with their job, against hordes of infantry it is just even more laughable. That leaves misdirection.

As a misdirector, they again under preform for the point cost. For the cost of 50 slaves you get a 73% chance of rallying after fleeing a charge. If the misdirect a target once, you could have just fielded a detachment of 5 archers and done the job for 33% of the cost. So you would need to be able to redirect units 3 times to make up the usage of points. They have a 72.2^3 or 38.55 chance of doing that, hardly what I would call a reliable use of the unit. Granted they are twice as fast as a detachment of archers, but the archers can be in 3 places at once and also have a chance of misdirecting a unit more than one. I'd call that an even swap for the speed of the pistoliers.

For all three of the pistolier's table top roles, they are either too many points or just not effective enough. Quick fix is give them one of those roles to be good at.

Harassment - Strength 4, 2 attacks in the first round of combat and don't suffer from multishot penalties.
Speed bump - Cost 2-3 points less per model. Maybe make the 4 points less per model and take away the light armor.
Misdirection - Make them Leadership 8.

I'd go with one of the above and leave the rest alone.

[DaemonReign]

it's that is suffers from ONE wound a TURN that it can gain. THAT is absolutely horrible.

A bit Off the T but in agreeing with this I must say I'm surpriced they haven't Errata:ed this bit to actually be 'one wound per spell' [instead of 'per turn'] since the current RAW just looks like a blooper when you concider how it basically puts the last Nail in the Army (for a lot of people anyway).

[DaemonReign]

The Pistoliers on the other hand are tasked for 3 jobs as a fast cavalry unit with a shooting attack, speed bump, harassment, and misdirection.
They are too expensive to be used as a speed bump in a standard formation, Harassment; here the pistoliers under preform instead of being flat useless. As a misdirector, they again under preform for the point cost.

Yes!
But what unit can you purchase instead of Pistoliers in the Empire Army that has the versatility of being able to choose role after deployment?
If you need an Harassment/Shooting unit, then sure there are better options - but none that can assume any of the other two roles in the blink of an Eye.
Your 33% cheaper detachment can't decide to use it's high movement and fast-cav rules to suddenly harass something on the other flank, now can it?
So it would seem to me that despite your math being on Point there's a 'net-synergy' (i.e. versatility) that you haven't accounted for.

I am playing the devil's advocate to some degree here. I am well aware the pistoliers require some skill (and perhaps a bit of luck) to use effectively. It is true that you can oftentime just ignore them as 8th Ed is commonly composed ('oh no, I failed an enemy sighted test! and you knocked two wounds off my Horde!') - and yes in the Empire book they are among the worst.
But cheer up! I'd take them in buckets over GW's new Fantasy-version of Flamers!

[nurgle5]

The problem I have with the mortar is that the Pidgeoneer is the point value you would want for the job of thinning incomming units down. Sure the mortar can still be used but it's just not as good as other options.

The thing is, the mortar is more likely to hit. The pigeons have a 33% chance of hitting, whereas the mortar has a 33% on hitting dead on target, other results still possibly resulting in hits. Both units are equally as likely to misfire. The pigeons have a higher strength, but the mortar template can inflict more hits. The pigeons are mobile but the mortar has a longer range. Regardless of the various advantages and disadvantages either unit has, my point is that a mortar is not useless.

Pidgeon Bombs should hit 21 models on a 20mm base unit.

Yes, apologies for that, a miscalculation on my part.

As for pistoliers, I would agree they could do with an added point of leadership or points reduction, I just wouldn't say that they are useless (not that you called them useless mind). In addition to the roles you've outlined, I find them quite useful for hunting down other fast cavalry and mopping up weakened units in the later stages of the game. They also find use in player psychology as many players are uncomfortable with a bunch of fast cav running around behind their lines.

[Warrior of Chaos]

Dwarf Flame Cannon. No contest.

Seconded!

I do have to disagree with Chaos Spawn being useless. I would prefer they be a special choice and not eat up points in rare, but I use them to great effect in my area. Them and warhounds have a very valuable niche in the WoC army......Forsaken on the other hand....poor Forsaken. I hope they get fixed because I love the fluff.

[Zephel]

A bit Off the T but in agreeing with this I must say I'm surpriced they haven't Errata:ed this bit to actually be 'one wound per spell' [instead of 'per turn'] since the current RAW just looks like a blooper when you concider how it basically puts the last Nail in the Army (for a lot of people anyway).

Yeah I guess horrible and capitalizing words was overkill. But that was my thought also. When I saw it the first time I thought "oh they must of errata'ed that". Go to check and no, had to double take. Seems like a pretty obvious mistake.

[Von Wibble]

Chaos spawn has one big thing going or it - effectively a 360 degree charge arc. Makes it very annoying against tomb king ICFB units. Unfortunately the spawn was at its best against harrassment troops like pistoliers - units whose abilities have been weakened anyway thus maknig the spawn worse than it was.

Morax - given I suggested your 1st option for the pistoliers a couple of pages ago I'll go with that! Generally agree with all points given except 1 - I can't see a 3 wound great eagle shrugging off an average of 2.7 wounds since that means it dies more than half the time

[Morax]

Chaos spawn has one big thing going or it - effectively a 360 degree charge arc. Makes it very annoying against tomb king ICFB units. Unfortunately the spawn was at its best against harrassment troops like pistoliers - units whose abilities have been weakened anyway thus maknig the spawn worse than it was.

Morax - given I suggested your 1st option for the pistoliers a couple of pages ago I'll go with that! Generally agree with all points given except 1 - I can't see a 3 wound great eagle shrugging off an average of 2.7 wounds since that means it dies more than half the time

The 2.7 wounds I showed was against t3 with no saves. The eagle, having toughness 4, would suffer only 2 wounds on average. That he can shrug off. Add in to that I can afford two eagles for the price of that unit of pistoliers and the problem becomes even more compounded.

@Nurgle - Fair enough point on hunting down units late game. Movement 8 with swiftstride is just about as good as it gets for running down fleeing units. I guess if I had to come up with a viable use for pistoliers as they are now I would vanguard them out, march to behind the enemy positions, then hope to run down any units i break in combat on my opponent's turn.

[DaMan82084]

Plague Censor Bearers, man I love these guys, but since 8th edition can't put myself to using them...

D...

Sorry but I don't agree. They may not be able to run up to most rank and file units but double punch them with clanrats or stormvermin and they are amazing. Even better if you can get them on the flank. Also can take out small knight units with out a problem.

[smileyface]

Mortar. Expensive warmachine that can't kill anything

Speaking as an elf player, I would consider mortars potentially the most important targets in an empire artillary battery.

Now, if your local meta involves a lot of dwarf armies, or all heavy cav, or so forth, I can see why you wouldn't like them. Also I'll acknowledge they might be a bit pricey, but anything that can make some opponent think "I have to take that out" is not useless.

[Jezbot]

Yes!
But what unit can you purchase instead of Pistoliers in the Empire Army that has the versatility of being able to choose role after deployment?
If you need an Harassment/Shooting unit, then sure there are better options - but none that can assume any of the other two roles in the blink of an Eye.
Your 33% cheaper detachment can't decide to use it's high movement and fast-cav rules to suddenly harass something on the other flank, now can it?
So it would seem to me that despite your math being on Point there's a 'net-synergy' (i.e. versatility) that you haven't accounted for.

The trick to pistoliers is not to think of them as nuisance shooting or speedbumps or for chasing down enemy units once they've broken. Instead they do all three and can do so in the one game. Basically you march them up in front of an enemy unit, plink a couple of kills, but position so they have to charge you. At which point you flee, then rally, and do the same again thanks to the fast cav rules. This can be enough to delay the enemy's advance long enough for you to gain a decent advantage.

Once this job is done then you move into the enemy's rear lines and chase his fleeing units off the board or try your hand at war machine hunting.

I am playing the devil's advocate to some degree here. I am well aware the pistoliers require some skill (and perhaps a bit of luck) to use effectively. It is true that you can oftentime just ignore them as 8th Ed is commonly composed ('oh no, I failed an enemy sighted test! and you knocked two wounds off my Horde!') - and yes in the Empire book they are among the worst.

Oh, definitely, it takes a little skill and a fair bit of luck (you have to actually get away when you flee, which is likely but not guaranteed, and rally). But the point is that people look at pistoliers on paper and think they can't justify the points for their damage, or for their nuisance value. What they don't realise is you get both, and unlike other nuisance units you don't sacrifice the pistoliers when they do it.

I'd put handgunners and crossbowmen as being objectively worse, to be honest. Unable to deliver anything near the damage they should for their price. In fact, if you look at pistoliers firing at close range compared to handgunners at long range they deliver the same number of Str 4 AP shots each, point for point. Which is pretty significant criticism of handgunners, to be honest, given how little people think of pistoliers shooting, and once you add in the fact that handgunners give you nothing other than their shooting...

[grimnar1031]

Plague Censor Bearers, man I love these guys, but since 8th edition can't put myself to using them...

D...

Censer bearers are great, skirmishers, 3 attacks at s5 with hatred and using only 6 (at only 96 pts) of them means probably 8 toughness tests or death, and stubbon within distance of the Furnace. You hit the right unit and over 50% of the time you will walk straight throught them. They also make a great speed bump if need be as well.

[Harwammer]

I'd put handgunners and crossbowmen as being objectively worse, to be honest. Unable to deliver anything near the damage they should for their price. In fact, if you look at pistoliers firing at close range compared to handgunners at long range they deliver the same number of Str 4 AP shots each, point for point. Which is pretty significant criticism of handgunners, to be honest, given how little people think of pistoliers shooting, and once you add in the fact that handgunners give you nothing other than their shooting...

And to add to this pistoliers have the movement to be able to get out of a tight spot, whereas if your bs shooting infantry is threatened while unsupported.... well that's them gone!

[Wesser]

Speaking as an elf player, I would consider mortars potentially the most important targets in an empire artillary battery.

Now, if your local meta involves a lot of dwarf armies, or all heavy cav, or so forth, I can see why you wouldn't like them. Also I'll acknowledge they might be a bit pricey, but anything that can make some opponent think "I have to take that out" is not useless.

When every other warmachine in the Empire army is better at killing elves? Pidgeoneers, Helblasters are all better at killing the Mortars primary target.

Besides I wouldn't ever field anything that didn't make elves feel weedy...wounding elves on 5+? No sir..

[Harwammer]

Wesser, having better options in the army list doesn't make a unit useless, even if it does make it used less.

[nurgle5]

handgunners give you nothing other than their shooting...

Handgunners do give you access to hochland rifles though, which are quite nifty for sniping enemy characters. Not overtly great, but it does occasionally give the opponent pause for thought.

When every other warmachine in the Empire army is better at killing elves? Pidgeoneers, Helblasters are all better at killing the Mortars primary target.

Besides I wouldn't ever field anything that didn't make elves feel weedy...wounding elves on 5+? No sir..

We've been over this, Helblasters and Pigeon Bombs aren't better just because you say so. Arguing that the mortar is useless simply because it is strength 2 does not hold weight as this is offset by the likelihood that mortar will inflict significantly more hits. The numbers on wounds inflicted have been crunched in previous posts for reference.

Wesser, having better options in the army list doesn't make a unit useless, even if it does make it used less.

This. Plus it's debatable as to whether the mortar is the poorer choice.

[Forgotmytea]

Glade Riders come near the top of my list. Horrifically expensive for what they do, they die to a stiff breeze and don't even have the strength bonus that Glade Guard have. I've tried running them in a few different roles from flankers to warmachine hunters to pick-off-the-straggelers(ers?), and every time found that they're just too costly for what little they can do.