None-Magic Armies

[TornadoCreator]

A generally accepted truth in Warhammer Fantasy is that Wizards are mandatory. I decided to make this thread to see if people still agree with that claim after seeing a couple of guys who both agree not to use magic battling out. One a Khorne Warriors Of Chaos player, the other an Orcs & Goblins player. They spent a while explaining how having just low end General in a bunker unit and a Battle Standard Bearer in their main strike unit, they would then instead spend the points most people spend on Wizards, Magic Items etc on more units. They claim the average 2500 point game will often have as much as 1000 points spent on characters, where as they never spend more than 300 claiming more than 10-15% of your army as characters is too much.

I'll post their army list at some point if I can get a copy of them. They both seem to think they're thinking more like generals where as everyone else is just being suckered into the glamour of magic, I'm not too sure and personally think they're underestimating magic. What about you guys, what do you think?

[logan054]

I tried a khorne army without any magic, I got boned by lore of shadows, it can be done, but you need something fast that can kill the enemy wizard before he does to much.

[Doommasters]

I tried a khorne army without any magic, I got boned by lore of shadows, it can be done, but you need something fast that can kill the enemy wizard before he does to much.

Agree, GW made casters a little to powerful compared to their combat counterparts which can be frustrating for those of us that like 'pure' combat armies. If you like Ogres a large unit of sniper Maneaters can take out a caster fairlywell. If you can't get to the caster by T2-3 you could be in trouble. In short if you want to be competitive in an all comers list a lvl2 with dispel scroll is fairly important IMO.

The problem is that some of those buffs and hexes out there turn regular troops into elites with one cast.......going up against a DE shadow list with no-magic (don't forget you get magic + the ability to dispel with greater success) I imagine would be like hitting your head against a brick wall.

If you calculate how many extra dispel and powerdice a lvl4 caster adds over the course of a game you will soon see why they are so loved in 8th.

[Vipoid]

My friend has a Khorne DoC army that does very well in our group.

At 2000pts, it basically consists of 3 units:

- Bloodthirster (usually demonic dispel scroll and either 3+ armour or reroll ability).
- ~50 Bloodletters plus herald (who has 3+ armour, rerolls to wound, and -2 Ld banner)
- 5 Bloodcrushers plus herald (3+ armour and rerolls to wound)

[Kalandros]

Daemons have one more option.
Move fast, Siren Song the wizard's unit in. Either throw enough attacks to kill the LV4 (usually 4+ warded) or break the unit~
And of course the Great Standard of Sundering can help too.

[BigbyWolf]

In 7th I used to run a Vampire army with no magic, and that did better than you thought it would, proving that magic isn't always required. Unfortunately the new book prohibits that now, which is a shame.

[Akkaryn]

My friend has a Khorne DoC army that does very well in our group.

At 2000pts, it basically consists of 3 units:

- Bloodthirster (usually demonic dispel scroll and either 3+ armour or reroll ability).
- ~50 Bloodletters plus herald (who has 3+ armour, rerolls to wound, and -2 Ld banner)
- 5 Bloodcrushers plus herald (3+ armour and rerolls to wound)

If that is his list (comes to about 1960 points doing some quick maths) then it is illegal, you need 3 units that are not lords or heroes.

On topic, I've had great success (ish) with a Khorne Warriors list. I include 3 chariots, lots of dogs and a couple of units of knights. The idea being get stuck into their mage bunker as soon as possible. Depending on the points limit I also include a hellcannon who's job it is to just pepper the mage bunker hopefully making it run. I have found that unless it's a pure defensive army I'm in combat by turn 2/3 and then the options for the mage becomes limited so it becomes easier to dispel just using dice. There are a few people in my group who like the fact it's a themed army and as such let me have a +2 bonus to dispel. Which although not needed helps a lot.

[snottlebocket]

It's harder in the 8th. Back in the 7th I just ran 6 or so dispel scrolls on super cheap goblin chariot mages. Pretty much shut down magic for most of the game for minimum hassle on my end. Burn scrolls, launch suicide chariots when empty.

People hated it but I loved having an out from the mandatory Mage thing.

[logan054]

I found with my WoC my Shaggoth was very good at taking out the enemy wizard, I still don't like not having a lvl2 with scroll after one game against my mates slaanesh army, that was so painful

[Chicago Slim]

The problem with no magic in a take-all-comers environment is that you have a really strong chance of getting completely jobbed by a cheap level 4 wizard (last night, I played a 2K game with just a level 2 wizard, a general and a BSB-- and I absolutely lost the game because of the magic phase: two Purple Suns knocked both of my infantry units to half strength, and assassin-spells that took out both my leaders, by turn 4).

Of course, you can take anti-magic that isn't a wizard-- but that gets into spending a bunch of points on things that aren't troops, again... Maybe in a heavy shooting army-- if you can knock out the entire unit the big bad wizard is in-- or you can just lump it, and hope to get lucky. It can be frustrating, getting jobbed by a single 200-point wizard, but if you know going into the game that it might happen, it's not that hard to deal with, and it certainly makes it all the more sweet when the wizard voips into the warp on turn one...

[Soundwave]

I use a couple of dark elf lists with no wizards one being a monster army the other a khainite lead by hellbrone. They both work very well and i have great results but i would not find this easy with other armies as speed is vital to reach your opponent before your army is melted by spells.

[Col. Dash]

We had a Bret army win 3rd in our 1500pt league and that was with him missing two nights of it. Zero magic. I use two low levels just as magic defense and buffing but I dont really try for magical offense on any of my many armies. My OnG savage shammy is there specifically for the shrunkin' Ead not his magic and wouldnt use him if it wasnt for that requirement.

[Wesser]

I often run my Bret army with no magic

Considering that for a lvl 2 damsel with a modest magic item I could instead have a whole 6-man lance instead? Not easy..

This tactic is commonly combined with peg.riders sniping out enemy wizards at the earliest convenience

[Wesser]

The problem with no magic in a take-all-comers environment is that you have a really strong chance of getting completely jobbed by a cheap level 4 wizard (last night, I played a 2K game with just a level 2 wizard, a general and a BSB-- and I absolutely lost the game because of the magic phase: two Purple Suns knocked both of my infantry units to half strength, and assassin-spells that took out both my leaders, by turn 4).

Of course, you can take anti-magic that isn't a wizard-- but that gets into spending a bunch of points on things that aren't troops, again... Maybe in a heavy shooting army-- if you can knock out the entire unit the big bad wizard is in-- or you can just lump it, and hope to get lucky. It can be frustrating, getting jobbed by a single 200-point wizard, but if you know going into the game that it might happen, it's not that hard to deal with, and it certainly makes it all the more sweet when the wizard voips into the warp on turn one...

Well thats Death Magic for you.

Quite broken especially against Ini 3 or less army or against armies who depends on characters. VC and Brets suffer especially

[Soundwave]

I often run my Bret army with no magic

Considering that for a lvl 2 damsel with a modest magic item I could instead have a whole 6-man lance instead? Not easy..

This tactic is commonly combined with peg.riders sniping out enemy wizards at the earliest convenience

Another speedy example! Some may disagree but a fair few armies rely on magic,especially if they cannot muster the speed to crush enemy wizard units, or warriors of chaos who would quite quickly become very dull without a magic phase,given there inactivity in the shooting phase and to a degree movement.

[logan054]

The problem with no magic in a take-all-comers environment is that you have a really strong chance of getting completely jobbed by a cheap level 4 wizard (last night, I played a 2K game with just a level 2 wizard, a general and a BSB-- and I absolutely lost the game because of the magic phase: two Purple Suns knocked both of my infantry units to half strength, and assassin-spells that took out both my leaders, by turn 4).

It really depends on the army, WoC won't have to worry as much about purple sun if its Chaos warrior heavy, you have to love that I5,like I said before about the shaggoth, one of it saving graces is its stats, for a monster I4 gives it a decent amount of protection against most of the ID spells, its high movement, small size also allow it to get into position to take out the primary caster. Of course this has to be done before someone gets a lucky cannon ball in its face (which thankfully only 3 armies can do) and before the any bebuff spells are in position to turn a combat against the WoC. The flip side to this of course skaven will wreck this kind of army if they manage to get a couple of dreaded 13th off, but of course again you have access to things like the shaggoth and dragon ogre which can ignore a decent amount of the range damage and actually get buffed by it.

So for a army without wizards I think you best options are empire with warrior priests who can atleast channel, Daemons which are Khorne heavy or warriors that don't conform to you standard layout or hellcannons as your rare choices and masses of marauders.

Another speedy example! Some may disagree but a fair few armies rely on magic,especially if they cannot muster the speed to crush enemy wizard units, or warriors of chaos who would quite quickly become very dull without a magic phase,given there inactivity in the shooting phase and to a degree movement.

Warriors of chaos can be a very fast army if you load up on dragon ogres, marauder horsemen and shaggoths, also keep in mind that dragon ogres with additional hand weapons will be just as good as chaos warriors in combat, the front rank is pumping out 5 S5 attacks per model, while some of the stats are lower they have a easier time of picking fights, and getting into the flanks of enemy units.

[Freeman]

Dark Elves with a Ring of Hotek peg master and shadows with assassins aboard can slay a spellcaster quickly, I think.

Pity is, DE have some sweet spellcasters and benefit a lot from magic, so it may be a waste not to take them.

[dms505]

I may be running WoC Khornish army in my next tournament. But making sure I have some speed and enough big stuff to make them choose what to cast on. Basically I'm going for the idea that I WILL lose a coup0le things moving across the board, but anything of mine that does get across into combat will crush what it touches. I did have a lvl 2 with death magic and a scroll but dumped it just to see what a non-mag list could do. Here is basis of my list. More for a test and fun than an real all comers list.

Lord of K on steed 1+,4+_
BSB of K (in Chosen) 2++
14 Chosen of K
20 Warriors AHW
10 warriors shields, banner of disc (for holding a flank)
Chaos Giant of Khorne (Yes)
Forsaken x5 (These may or may not be over rated, first time using them but they do have some speed)
Hellcannon
1 Spawn
6 Knights of K
8 Warhounds
7 Warhounds

[Hashut-Up!]

I imagine that skaven could also do a no magic army. First, the list would need to be loaded up on war machines to give you some versatility vs the various units you would encounter that would give normal rats (clanrats, plague monks, slaves and stormvermin) fits. Purchase assassins with the pts saved from not buying wizards to go hunt the opposing ones. The list would feel like a dwarf list, but with more of a grinder-type feel and play style to it due to the high body count/low quality troops as opposed to the dwarfs and their more elite units. I bet this would work pretty well (not as well as a grey seer supported army mind you) and wouldn't really care about getting hit with the really nasty spells that would likely be getting through more often just due to the nature of the army (oh no, you purple sunned my slaves......whatever will i do).

[Sexiest_hero]

If you go no magic, you have to uild your army around it. that means lots of assassinating units and unit sizes that wont lose you the gae if they get purple sunned