Dark Eldar - The Dilemma

[Sithlord]

Okay first of all this is ehemmm a whining thread But I mean no offense though, this thread aside from being a whiner also serve as summary of all these 2 years playing dark eldar who are made by Phil Kelly. So let me explain my experience playing the dark eldar.

So incase you are wondering, dark eldar are actually unique in that they are a 'piratical' armies, rely on speed, low number, low defensive capabilities and should have been 'high' offensive (close combat) attacks. The current codex design have succeed on the first 3, but failed on the last which is bummer. On the 6th edition, it become even more bummer with current fleet rules, which on 'speed' term they have reduce effectiveness. It is indeed as phil kelly said that dark eldar are glasshammer but I would rather said a dull glasshammer as they are lack offensive power.

So that's explain the general, let's see how the meta gaming of competitive gameplay. So let's play where you are bit on warrior stuff, back up by ravager and few reavers and incubi elite. End result? bummer, against horde type armies (ye don't have enough offensive to destroy all of them in single strike, pretty much the unit number you have to deal against them, I'm looking at you imperial guard ) , bummer too against vehicle armies (power from pain are useless as you don't get pain token fighting against this type of armies, blood angel and imperial guard... and with even bigger problem when you actually face this army as flyer... the necrons), and also against the armies tailored against dark eldar (yep flamers and lascannon/autocannon spam, you face against this type of dude in all type of wargamings, can't blame them for just wanting to win 'perfectly' against you but it's perfectly ruin the spirit of the game where you are suppose to enjoy the game instead being one of them annoyed... the only facing this dude is to have another armies by not telling which race you are playing against them, and I still don't make them yet). So indeed the only way for dark eldar generally win with any type of army list is when your enemy field in low number units (grey knights being one of them), but the ONLY way to win as dark eldar (I can even said the ONLY LIST to win) is playing venom spam armies. This is one hell of dilemma as dark eldar to win in competitive environment MUST use a venom spam list in order to win (even then you MUST have a damn good luck on those CCW attack rolls! They are just like have S3 against T4 at all times!)

Off with generals and Metas, let's go to unit usefulness list. Minus the special character.
Archon > useful (for a good reason)
succubi > this are pretty shabby, but it's cheap, but still can't tackle those other characters moderate
haemonculus > cheap and otherwise useful for pain token, but little bit bummer in 6th edition as feel no pain take on 5+ moderate
royal court > in 5th useless, in 6th a little bit useful because incubi power weapon no longer kill those 2+, might as well max the number of attacks against them. moderate
Incubi > 5th are greatest, 6th wot the heck... AP3? are you kidding me? terminator win all arounds and only klaivex can kill them bit useless now
mandrakes > 6th edition give this guy a big pain instead garner some pain as outflank can no longer assault when arrived, USELESS
grotesque > great on pain token but still take pain on 6th edition with feel no pain 5+, moderate
wracks > same as grotesque, moderate, this also one of the unit to be carry in venom spam list as most people bring them for their T4 (useful)
trueborn > one of the unit that will be carried on venom spam list, useful in them, useless in other type of list (I count useful for purpose of counting them)
bloodbride > owww expensive, high attacks and they are so dead when their transport is gone, useless.... walking? not very good option eh
warrior > same as bloodbride
wych > same as bloodbride
Reaver > one of unit include in venom spam list usually carry by the people, is a top notch unit that can take care most unit in 40k galaxy, provided they are not shot first
hellion > almost same reason as bloodbride, but they have better save at least blarrghhh (useless...)
scourge > moderate unit, would have been best if they are cheaper but we are talking dark eldar in here man... low number count units
beastmaster > 5th a little bit sucks, but in 6th they are better provided they are not shot at first.. moderate in my opinion
ravager > one of unit usually include in venom spam list, useful at anytime as they cheap and good tankhunter
razorwing and voidraven > oucchhh this two flyer dudes, not only very expensive they are extremely weak, even if those single autocannon shot get hit them, you better pray they are not getting those 4+ result on damage table, bit useless now in 6th ( two useless)
chronos > anyone still play this? although useful for garner cheap pain token, this dude are useless when fighting all vehicle armies (where the heck they can kill to get those pain token useless in my opinion)
talos > moderate, your basic monstrous creature that are use as beatstick provided they can reach them in first place... bummer...
raider > most expensive transport you ever seen in 40k universe, and also most weakest of all of them. man even a bolter fire can kill them in 6th! useless
venom > this is the only unit that gave a big win to dark eldar, as they are cheaper than raider and same armor value as them. you can field them in large number and still can swathe all those infantry unit with ease...

so let's count the number of useless, moderate and useful.. that will be 9 useless units, 7 moderate unit, 5 useful units (these are unit include in venom list, the only way to win) . So in designing unit, dark eldar are bummers yerggghhh

So conclusion... dark eldar are becoming increasingly weak in 6th edition but that's only because they already weak in 1st place. Phill kelly failed to deliver what he would called glasshammer as he forgot to increase offensive power (most unit don't have them, the only who has it is archon, incubi and royal court). My hope is for future updates for dark eldar (either codex or FAQ if they are wanting it to change it immediately) that the glasshammer style armies can be reach for phil and GW. And as for you guys, is there any counter-argument or some backing argument to what I said? Discuss....

[Inquisitor Shego]

I am dumping my dark eldar.

I can take that we can't all hide in reserve anymore, it was cheatingly scumish (I still did it)
I can take that we take Str 4 hits when raiders pop. Burning vehicles burn, brah!
I can take that we have no feesable AA beyond Razorwing. We're in the teething stages of the new edition.
I can take that our Raiders and Ravagers and Venoms are hit on 3+ if we move at the speed of sound (barely, but okay...)
I can take AP3 Incubi and AP3 Huskblade. Blasters deal with AP2 just fine
I can take hull points making us all the more delicate, our vehicles die anyway
I can take not being able to hold objectives in vehicles. This applies to all, but not everybody's a small, expensive, T3 5+ band

Can't move more than 6 if you want to disembark. Open topped now useless? Charlie Cocklesworth, fetch the brandy my goodman, we've got a bolly wally balderdash in the pavillion! I say old boy, tom pickles smithe the third killed my butler with a blunderbuss. (This line make any sense to you? Neither does 6th ed for me). Oh, stick webway portal into the dislike part too, and I didn't even use one!

Ah? But you're just another player who wants to do Mech! My imperial guard army was Blob throughout all of 5th Ed. I played foot mobile chaos space marines. I loved the theme of it, and dying faster than Cobra to GI Joe. To me the theme of DE is fast. Dark Eldar are no longer fast and practical. They can be swift, but if I zoom toward and get assaulted and die so fast its ridiculous.

Dark Eldar are a beautiful army. They're a stylish army. They're just.... I hate playing them so much. My army were raider based. That's the idea. Swoop in quickly, kill and kidnap, and leave. Not pansy infantry like the Japanese Army in the end of Battle Royale 2

EDIT - I know this is a whine. Best leave me be. I'm now doing daemons thanks to Raging Heros mantis miniatures

[ftayl5]

This is absolutely incorrect in almost every way.
Incubi are usless? No they just lost a use. They can no longer go and hunt terminators, well so what? They still beat the crap out of everything without a 2+ save and you can use something else to kill termies. Like blasterborn.
You wouldn't use a lasgun to shoot down a tank so why use Incubi to kill terminators? They can still rip apart MEQ's and anything else with a 3+ save without much of a hassle and they still have a good save themselves.
Bloodbrides aren't the best, there are other units that do the same job better, but that doesn't make them bad, it just means that other options are better.

Warriors are not a very good option? Wyches? What!?
Warriors have brilliant shooting. A unit with a splinter cannon in a reaver with racks can rip poorly armoured units up! Orks, nids, guard all perfect targets for massed infantry killing.
Wyches are brilliant. They suffered a bit from overwatch but we have ways to deal with that too, PGL's plus cover = awesome cover save. Or you can charge in a wrack unit (T4) to take the overwatch hit first then charge in the wyches unharmed. They're hardly bad in combat too with a bunch of pistol or grenade shot/s as they assault followed by a bunch of attacks and a 4+ invuln in combat.
Then against vehicles, haywire is just insane. Hitting on 3's at worst and a 2+ = a hull point stripped, a unit of 8 would have any vehicle gone in one round, a unit of 5 would take 2 at most.

Reavers are amazing, they can do a lot of damage with their baldevanes and the option for heat lances is very strong as they have the mobility to get in range and at rear armour and destroy vehicles with ease. Pretty powerful in assault too and good synergy with the webway portal. They're also fast enough to go across the entirety of most boards in one turn.

Hellions are not useless at all, not even close. They aren't awesome but they're still fast and they hit hard, take a big unit with the duke and they're actually very very potent.
Scourge are great, haywire blasters and dark lances add another anti-vehicle option and they're very fast and can get into position easily, they also have ghostplate which is handy and even the stock shardcarbines are good weapons.

Not experienced with voidraven but the razorwing is not at all useless, NOT AT ALL. It is very very vast, hard to shoot down and it can do a hell of a lot of damage to whatever you chose to kit it out with. Anti infantry, vehicles, MEQ's, other aircraft whatever you want. It's very cheap too for what it does.

Raiders are useless?
Raiders are useless? Are you sure you've even read the book!?
Raiders are brilliant. For a pretty cheap cost you get a dark lance (or disintegrator), a very fast open topped vehicle that can be assaulted from, can easily get an awesome jink save and has a lot of other awesome options. Splinter racks as I said before are great, night shields can be useful too.

Take a deep breath, re-read your book while listening to calming music and rather than whining that "almost everything is useless" think about things for a moment and come to your senses.

DE are actually a very balanced and competitive army.

[Sithlord]

DE are actually a very balanced and competitive army.

since you mention this sentence. Can you tell me what list you are playing on 1500pts? I will give you TWO army list that are very hard to beat if you are not playing the venom spam list.

this 1st enemy army list IG
command HQ (3 meltaguns and banners) ride in chimera fit with heavy flamer
platoon command (4 meltaguns) ride in chimera fit with heavy flamer
2 plain infantry squad
2 autocannon heavy weapon team
veteran squad with 3 plasma guns ride in chimera fit with heavy flamer
3 vendettas
2 manticores
1 psyker battle squad of 7 men
all this exactly around 1500pts

the other army list blood angels
1 libby
2 assault squad of 5 men (infernus pistol and powerweapons), each ride in razorback with heavy flamers
1 assault squad of 10 men, in rhino (this one fitted with all those infernus pistols and powerfist)
3 baal predator (both fitter with heavy bolter sponson, one of them being inferno cannon)
2 predator (autocannon turret, lascannon sponsons)
1 stormraven gunship

and regarding raider is useless, i will say it's still useless.. for plain jerk of 60 pts you get open topped, AV10 all around and single extremely lucky shot of 36" lance to destroy a tanks fighting a chimera which is cost 5 pts less then raider but over the top AV12 front, 2 great basic weapon of multi laser and heavy bolter and also close topped. on same dimension of fighting toe and toe, raider is dead shot by those chimera...

[Soupcat]

I'm not sure what your talking about, DE are still really awesome. Ravengers are still a steal, razorwings still do a number on infantry, Jetbikes are solid, warriors still are dirt cheap poison shooting, trueborn with blasters are still solid. Jink allows us to save on flicker fields (flyers exempted) and go with night shields, pre measuring and a bit of mental math will cut back on incoming attacks by alot. Wyches while not as great at tarpiting anymore shred tanks and score providing an awesome distraction for a small amount of points. Battle brother eldar means you basically tell your opponent that they will not be casting powers this game while providing a nice force multiplier for your own troops.
Yes you can't move more then 6 inches if you want to disembark from a raider, but we are one of the few armies in the game that can assault from a transport still AND you have a SIX INCH disembark range now, you lost a whoping 2 inches it really is not a huge deal.
To be honest you seem to be making the same mistake people have been making for ages, dark eldar are not an assault army they have always been much better at shooting then chopping.

[Inquisitor Shego]

I'm not sure what your talking about, DE are still really awesome. Ravengers are still a steal, razorwings still do a number on infantry, Jetbikes are solid, warriors still are dirt cheap poison shooting, trueborn with blasters are still solid. Jink allows us to save on flicker fields (flyers exempted) and go with night shields, pre measuring and a bit of mental math will cut back on incoming attacks by alot. Wyches while not as great at tarpiting anymore shred tanks and score providing an awesome distraction for a small amount of points. Battle brother eldar means you basically tell your opponent that they will not be casting powers this game while providing a nice force multiplier for your own troops.
Yes you can't move more then 6 inches if you want to disembark from a raider, but we are one of the few armies in the game that can assault from a transport still AND you have a SIX INCH disembark range now, you lost a whoping 2 inches it really is not a huge deal.
To be honest you seem to be making the same mistake people have been making for ages, dark eldar are not an assault army they have always been much better at shooting then chopping.

I play solid shooting with my DE, save Beastmaster + 10 razorwing flocks sometimes. The disembarkation is to fly your troops somewhere safe then get them out. Given you now take a Str 4 hit on board, given your raider has WS1 in CC, given a squad that shoots it can assault the occupants who disembark after the str 4 mauling, given the nerf to FNP to those on board, given the improved charge range of your foes, Raiders are flying coffins (much like the nickname given to early WW2 soviet planes). This isn't a whine. This is field testing from an optimist whose hopes have been crushed. Razorwing Jetfighter is good? Its armour 10. Marines and Guard get armour 11/12 airborne. At least we get airborne? its not a massive help to us, really.

[Soupcat]

First off open topped for a shooting army is still not useless, the fact that you can move more then 6 and shoot everything is huge. Yes over 6 is snap shot only, but that's what splinter racks are for.
Not to mention you get extra range because you don't care about access points.
Yes it hurts when your tranport dies but thats what MSU warrior squads are for, we get 5 bodies, 2 darklight on a fast moving platform for 130 points or a full squad with a splinter cannon and rerolls for under 200, you blow up one there are 4 or 5 more where that came from in the troops slot alone.
The addition of hull points means you are not throwing a full round of shooting at a tank and getting an unlucky string of shaken results.
The razor wing is not fantastic, but while its armor 10 it always will have its 5++ without any loss in firepower and to be honest with smart play aircraft due to the slim turning ratio and mandatory movement will shoot maybe 3 times a game anyways so the need for heavy anti air is over rated.

[Inquisitor Shego]

Works in theory, Soupcat, I agree. But now we're going slow, and engaging in a slugging match. DE lose slugging matches. Before when a raider popped you got some cover from a crater. You took some S3. Now its S4, we die in droves. You don't gain any extra range from access points (or the lack there of). If you're in your deployment zone and move 6 out, that's still your deployment zone + 6, whether you're in a raider or not. And best of all, now we're all out on the table on turn 1+2 due to the 50% reserve rules, deep strike loves us. Landing in the middle of a raider swarm, or its perifery results in warrior genocide.

I (emphasis on me and my DE) are outranged, out classed, and the awesomeness of my guns isn't helping in attrition. To counter attrition in 5th ed we could play something of a speed game, choose your battle, hit and run, refused flank, last second objective grab with your sole remaining raider limping ahead etc. Now I;m dying faster than ever before. Of course if it's different to you, I applaud. I am happy to see a DE player dancing happy in 6th Ed. For me, this is like being in school... and a new canteen lady has started urinating in the soup. You complain, and she says "well it won't kill you...." She's right, I can eat the pea pee soup and not die. However, it has become a deeply less enjoyable experience for me.

I dare say its become a horrible embarassment

[adreal]

Dark eldar do have a pretty good shooting game, plus we have upgrades that can put a dent in incoming fire (night shields, flickerfields). We do even better when night fight is happening (gotta love flat out ignoring it). Dark eldar have always been a tough army to play, and now we don't really have much in the way of combat (though harlies are something to look at) but our shooting is better then ever (being able to shoot if vehicle moves 12", move and shoot heavy weapons)

[Sithlord]

@soupcat
I don't mean to disrespect, but you are talking like you never play as dark eldar OR you do play dark eldar but not very long time OR you do play dark eldar for long time but your gaming group do not have power gamer or sort (I really like the last one but extremely rare in any cases ). Like shego said, theorically correct but you didn't count how many points you spent to make the army list you want and trust me, by the time you make a single dark eldar unit (say 10 warrior with splinter cannon riding a raider with flickerfield, splinter racks and nightshield) you are outnumbered (LITERALLY) by most armies in 40k. and pretty much the firepower that you exactly want, is not there

@shego
second this, dark eldar armies are not for long sluggish battle which is why we have power from pain.... sort of... but the power of pain itself are downright a bummer on 5th, and even more bummer in 6th as even a S6 weapons could just kill those dark eldars. as stated in 1st post , phil kelly FAILED to deliver that GLASSHAMMER style armies (where it means to be suppose strike fast due to substance of glass, do crap lot of damage hence to hammer time and if hit back, they crack too easy...) if I'm seeing it on dark eldar in 6th ed, I see just CHEAPGLASS (strike fast, do no significant damage and die too fast)

@Adreal
what do you know, I can repeat what I said for soupcat for you. If you want

And also, I've played this dark eldar for TWO YEARS and know the transition between 5th ed and 6th ed. This experience from veterans
and if you want to know the ONLY list that really work for dark eldar in competitive environment is this (against any armies).

Archon with blaster, huskblade, soultrap, shadowfield
haemonculus with liquifier guns
4 unit of wracks contain 5 dude, champs plus liquifier guns riding venom with splinter cannon upgrade
2 unit of trueborn equip with 4 blasters riding venom with splinter cannon upgrade
3 ravagers
6 reavers with heatlances

I think this is around 1500pts. Some people would trade couple of wrack into wyches with haywire grenades, or trade 1/2 ravager for either voidraven/razorwing

[scapegoatboy69]

hmm... seems we're of differing opinions. It feels like 6th buffed my DE instead of weakening them.

Raiders now move 6" further than they used to.
Reaver Jetbikes move 12" more.
Wyches are amazing anti-tank in addition to being alright close combat.
Premeasuring makes nightshields useable.
Jink more-or-less gives all of our stuff free flickerfields.
Allies and fortifications open up options and increase our control over the tabletop.
Beasts are speedier.
Glancing hits not rolling on the damage table makes our vehicles more able to do their job.

Shego, what has your list been looking like? How do you play it? Perhaps we can help ya.

[Lord Damocles]

@soupcat
I don't mean to disrespect, but you are talking like you never play as dark eldar OR you do play dark eldar but not very long time OR you do play dark eldar for long time but your gaming group do not have power gamer or sort

@Adreal
what do you know, I can repeat what I said for soupcat for you. If you want

Wow. Way to dismiss anyone who doesn't agree that Dark Eldar suck

[arkirk246]

instead of pointing out what the DE units are bad at, look what they are good at????
the transition from 5ed to 6ed hasn’t made DE anymore/less stronger in CC, our speed is still far more superior than any other

i have also have been playing DE ever since the new Codex/models were released, before them it was SM, they are worlds apart in play style, and i have had great success with them 
its true people think DE are a CC army!!! But i like to think of them as a mix of CC & shooting we are good (Not great) at both roles

i play a fairly balanced list with lots of small units, I then gang up on my targets, (don’t put all your eggs in one basket)

TBH the hardest part i find playing DE is having 2nd turn, I would much rather have the 1st turn? but this is now mitigated by the fact it a 50/50 chance to get Night Fight and all DE have the night fight USR, we can have Night shields & FF so not all doom and gloom!!!!!!

don’t go after terminators with incubi? even in 5th ed i never assaulted terminators just used DL against them if you must hold them up with wyches for 1-2 turns

Against CC armies i keep my distance and shoot, finally mopping up the remains with my incubi/grots/wyches,
against mech BA/IG i play a different style (the role is reversed?) i run everything up the field, this allows my wyches/blasters/Heat lances/Grotesques to get to work on the mech line then fall back and shoot the remaining foot soldiers

my list hasn’t really changed from 5th to 6th ed


remember fight the dark elder way................ use a sledge hammer to crack a walnut and if you cant run!!!!!!

[Inquisitor Shego]

Raiders now move 6" further than they used to

A benefit. But move 6 further to do what? Get closer to an enemy that can mince them in close combat on 3+? Any turn you are moving like that, you are not shooting. DE have always been a race against time army. Any turn you are not hitting your opponent, they are hitting you. If not, they're moving and adapting to your game plan. Preparing. Or maybe those drop pods are descending, or demons summoning. My experience with DE since 3rd ed has always been Turn 1-2 kill what scares me the most. If its still standing, I'm dead. Table them, or they table you. Very seldom a middle ground until 5th ed with the classic turn 5 objective grab, and pray for a 1-2 to end the game.

Reaver Jetbikes move 12" more.

An amazing benefit. But their save dropped. 3+ cover save is gone. They die quicker, getting a cover of 4+. Sure you can decide in the shooting phase when to move, but again appreciate this is a game where people are moving faster, charging further. They're more deadly, but again more brittle. Well I say more deadly, that's a lie. They still do the same damage. Hammer of Wrath? Getting jetbikes into CC concerns me, unless its a guard unit on its deathbed.

Wyches are amazing anti-tank in addition to being alright close combat.

12 points a pop? For something now getting pummeled by snap fire and flamer hits that bounces off of MEQ? That now has to walk to the enemy cause it can't use a web way? It can leap off a raider, but that raider's only moving 6. Then the raider gets popped. Your 12 point wyches take Str 4 hits on a 6+ save. Or maybe you assault a transport. Next turn you've got 10 whatevers staring you in the face. Even guardsmen rapid firing can be a pain to wyches worth twice their points.

Premeasuring makes nightshields useable.

Makes them awful. Your opponent can walk forward 6 and shoot max range with a rapid fire weapon, negating 10 points of wargear. Before, they didn't have that bonus, and there was an element of uncertainty, where foes might lose shooting from a unit entirely.

Jink more-or-less gives all of our stuff free flickerfields.[/QUOTE]

If the Raider moves, when cover saves are just as attainable. When they're not, we had the arrival on turn 2 trick. We don't get jink saves if our opponent gets the first turn, leading to indirect fire, or whatever else obliterating us.

Allies and fortifications open up options and increase our control over the tabletop.

FORTS - Dark Eldar do not fortify. They don't erect an Aegis defence line and sip a cup of tea. I know I'm old school but we were founded on the principal of 3rd Ed. We had a mission! Always attack. Never the defenders. Other people can disagree, and in their own heads they're absolutely right. In my head, my vision of my army, which led me to collecting them is this. ALWAYS ATTACK. The only thing they build is a jenga tower of a planetary population's spleens for the relief force to find, 10 days/weeks/years too late. Lets say we do fortify. What do we buy to protect an army that cannot look after itself in CC, is terrified of flamers (which will find you when you hide in cover). Then there's the cost. 30% cost increase on GW Terrain since the new edition. I know this is not 100% irrelevant, but please guys understand everything I've said so far it my opinion, and my principles. If you want fortifications, go bananas. I suppose Commoragh looks like Emo Stalingrad sometimes.

ALLIES - When it was first said DE helped Iyanden I recall many a DE player feeling that some shoe-horned nonsense only eclipsed by Mortarion losing to Draigo, the Silent King and Dante locking lips at the school disco, and Space Wolves thinking the Red Corsairs are so epic cause they stood a chance of dying. DE should frankly find other DE to be distrustful and only working together in the most dire of occasions

Beasts are speedier.

I cannot knock this at all. It has been a huge boon to me.

Glancing hits not rolling on the damage table makes our vehicles more able to do their job.

Likewise, a massive benefit, but with a 4+ penetrating hit from Lascannons, 3+ from AP1 destroying a Raider, and bolters/gauss/sluggas/shootas/shuriken catapults/tyranid blobs being able to rip us to pieces, our survivability was always about speed and stealth. See point one. We move faster. We shoot less. We forgo a turn of shooting to get into a good spot? Doable.

Shego, what has your list been looking like? How do you play it? Perhaps we can help ya.

I really appreciate that Scapegoat. Genuinely, thank you, that's decent of you. I know I'm a negative nancy (my friends would agree). I'm curious to see your input. I've gone from a 80-85% win rate to losing badly. Though part of this has been my mentality. Last 3-4 games I've played, I put my army down and played to lose to get it over so quickly. I am truly hating this edition. All the points you've listed above are correct.

My opponents are

hybrid assault/death company rush Blood Angels + Meph
rhino rush + deathclaw rush + oblit/contemptor/decimator emperor's children
crimson fist turtle + camo cloak + tech marine + TH/SS Termies
Space Wolf Long Fang / Wolf Guard spam

List is usually

Sathonyx
3 x 4 Blasterborn + Venom + SC x 2
3 x Raider + 10 Warriors + BL + SC + Sybarite
3 x Ravager

1500 (just under)

[Grampyseer]

since you mention this sentence. Can you tell me what list you are playing on 1500pts? I will give you TWO army list that are very hard to beat if you are not playing the venom spam list.

Well here's the problem!! You've been able to identify 2 whole army lists that......wait for it......make the game challenging!!

Should ANYONE expect to field an army that makes ALL games a non contest?


You've dismissed constructive comments, whilst touting your extensive experience with the DE as a reason not to listen.

Perhaps you could try taking some of the suggestions if you're really in the dire straights you claim.

[Nubl0]

Sorry OP but most of that was complete and utter rubbish. Incubi useless? Using them to hunt terminators in 5th is just as stupid as in 6ths, seeing as they would just bounce of stormshield termies and then get pulped in return you were always better off tar pitting them with wytches. Raiders are still fine, jink save means you can now skimp on the flickerfield if you want and nights shilds are kinda cool now what with premeasuring. Also they have always died super fast, it's no different now. Infact I would say hull points has benefited them seeing as glances do nothing other than strip one, meaning bolters can't take off that precious lance or immobilize you. Oh and they died to bolters in 5th too. I have found that the army plays pretty much the same, it all died so fast last edition that dying a tiny bit faster doesn't make much of a difference. The lack of AP2 melee weapons is annoying but just shooting termies to death with lances/blasters was always the better option

[Sithlord]

Well here's the problem!! You've been able to identify 2 whole army lists that......wait for it......make the game challenging!!

Should ANYONE expect to field an army that makes ALL games a non contest?


You've dismissed constructive comments, whilst touting your extensive experience with the DE as a reason not to listen.

Perhaps you could try taking some of the suggestions if you're really in the dire straights you claim.

that two army list are the most hardest if I play other dark eldar army list that are not venom spams (you can see my current list on above) this is my experience pretty much from shego said also include as well :

hybrid assault/death company rush Blood Angels + Meph
rhino rush + deathclaw rush + oblit/contemptor/decimator emperor's children
crimson fist turtle + camo cloak + tech marine + TH/SS Termies
Space Wolf Long Fang / Wolf Guard spam

all this plus what I said from before. are very hard to beat.. my 1st army list, before began to expand to venom spam army list would be like this

archon with your usual cache of huskblade, soultrap, shadowfield etc (can't remember, but I bring Phantasm though for use for his bodyguards)
5 incubi include champs ride in raider flickerfield, aethersails, ramming device tingie
3 X 10 warrior blaster, splinter cannon, champs with venomblades ride on same raider option as incubis
ravager
razorwings
6 reavers, 2 grav talon, 2 heat lance, champs with venom blades

this is my 1st collection on dark eldar 2 years ago when new model is out. I could tell you it's bummer when fighting all vehicle armies on 5th ed... at that time I decide well just a game.. gradually I keep losing a lot with this list. and start to compile effective list, start from wych, wracks, gradually I came up with that venom list (though not entirely MY IDEA, it was pick up on internet, the winner of some GTA american tourney or something). And then off to 6th ed... the dark eldar become a cake armies, after I realize that current dark eldar are just bit off right now.. Sure you guys can shove some great army list to win but can't you guys think how much dough i've to spent again? seriously I though the stuff you buy should have at least same chances to win? Or maybe you can say constructive, raider equip with bla bla bla, of course it will be great, who didn't try that. i've try with just 10 cheap warriors ride just in raider with just splinter racks. Believe me I tried that. But maybe I'm wrong anyway on all this, some of you defend the dark eldar, but for those who really play a long time... then you realize something missing in dark eldar.

Here is what I conclude, you may or may not agree anyway but I spell it :
1. Playing dark eldar, in order to win, they have VERY FEW RESTRICTIVE option army list to win effectively. You can't be like the grey knights, where you can spam, normal greyknights, paladins, purifiers and still have big chances to win.. not to mention the necron too. Remember the big key word. VERY FEW RESTRICTIVE.

2. What phil kelly promise is not delivered when creating new dark eldar. The offense power are just so so. I mean if you want to make a Fast but otherwise weak armies, might as well just give hell lot of firepower or CC power. instead being halfwit (splinter cannon poisoning should have been 3+ for one thing, or 4+ but get re-rolled, lots of my gaming group said dark eldar too halfwit on their attacking power. Necron on the other hand though slow but they have good resilient and huge number offensive shooting power). I don't know if I'm wrong on this. I recalled reading on net (I forgot which one, probably on warseer or maybe not) that phil kelly mention that current dark eldar rules are made too hastily without giving more times to properly test them (as GW policy to release the new model immediately.. remember GW sells models NOT the rules), he also said that hasty rules product are proven when you see royal court and dais of destruction rules in the book(the last is mentioned very well by him).

3. point comparison, that dark eldar are just way to pricey. Okay let's compare the equal one. Flyer vs flyer. let's see IG flyer vendettas (anti tank right?) VS Void raven (anti tank too). PTS = vendetta 130pts, voidraven 145pts. Armor value, vendetta, F/S/R = 12/12/10, voidraven, F/S/R= 11/11/10. Special rules, vendetta = hover, voidraven = ummmm none? Geez guys, I always compare unit to unit base on what they really can do. that vendetta and voidraven are just prime sample on how big failed the pts cost and the justified action do by those two units. Even I was surprise when I found out that most IG vehicles are way cheap and can do much more than dark eldar one. It's okay if you lack speed in IG's, but at least you got very long range weapons and not to mention highly destructive that even if you have speed, you can be easily captured by it. on top of that you have that number

[arkirk246]

NubIO- Couldn't agree more!!!!

Sithlord- sounds like DE are not for you maybe you should use SM or IG they sound better suited to your play style, DE are just like CW Eldar you can’t spam only Banshees or only Fire Dragons they all need support that’s what i like about playing Eldar, it takes a lot more thinking IMO, this is why DE need balanced lists to do well

You & your gaming group are spot on DE are halfwit???? Like i mentioned earlier DE cant out shoot a shooting army but we can out assault them & we can’t out assault a CC army but we can out shoot them, DE have the speed to assault the weak and keep away from the strong


Vendetta- lascannon, Voidraven- Void Lance which is better for AV 13+, Vendetta- no Void mine, Voidraven- Voidmine? Not saying one is better than the other but the pts different between the two is mute!!!! Again two different roles one is a transport and one is a LR worst nightmare

when I first started using DE after SM i use to lose all the time! then i found there key attributes, now i can safely say i win more now than loss

[Sithlord]

Sithlord- sounds like DE are not for you maybe you should use SM or IG they sound better suited to your play style, DE are just like CW Eldar you can’t spam only Banshees or only Fire Dragons they all need support that’s what i like about playing Eldar, it takes a lot more thinking IMO, this is why DE need balanced lists to do well

You & your gaming group are spot on DE are halfwit???? Like i mentioned earlier DE cant out shoot a shooting army but we can out assault them & we can’t out assault a CC army but we can out shoot them, DE have the speed to assault the weak and keep away from the strong

which is why you hit the first thing I mention, VERY FEW RESTRICTIVE ARMY LIST to win as dark eldar.
And regarding halfwit, yep 8 out of 10 people that said it in my gaming group said that (even though some of them are a win games for me, they still said it's halfwit firepower. And I agree with them too being dark eldar players. Regarding that halfwit word, because I don't know I would describe it in english of word 'tanggung' in indonesian language).
Sure maybe IG suits me, as I already play them in the form of death korp of krieg. Their list are balance, you can use any kind of army list and still have big chances to win (by mean if you are smart enough, you can win with any list of death korps). But dark eldar are my first armies, ever since I played them on their 3rd edition. So you get my cliche on them mind you.

Vendetta- lascannon, Voidraven- Void Lance which is better for AV 13+, Vendetta- no Void mine, Voidraven- Voidmine? Not saying one is better than the other but the pts different between the two is mute!!!! Again two different roles one is a transport and one is a LR worst nightmare

owwww yes... vendetta is much even better with those troop capacity, and no, they are not fitted as transport roles. They are flying tank hunting with transport capabilities.. mwahahahaha (in sarcasm on what you said). Didn't I mention, when those people on the ground have lucky shot on their autocannon/lascannon shot would make any dark eldar pilot sweating alot? That's big difference between vendetta and voidraven

you know, it's kinda dilemma if I repeat what shego said on this

I can take that we can't all hide in reserve anymore, it was cheatingly scumish (I still did it)
I can take that we take Str 4 hits when raiders pop. Burning vehicles burn, brah!
I can take that we have no feesable AA beyond Razorwing. We're in the teething stages of the new edition.
I can take that our Raiders and Ravagers and Venoms are hit on 3+ if we move at the speed of sound (barely, but okay...)
I can take AP3 Incubi and AP3 Huskblade. Blasters deal with AP2 just fine
I can take hull points making us all the more delicate, our vehicles die anyway
I can take not being able to hold objectives in vehicles. This applies to all, but not everybody's a small, expensive, T3 5+ band

makes ma me smile especially the last line, last sentence

[Rated_lexxx]

Well I won my feast of blades qualifier a couple of weeks ago with my DE

There were 22 people there so it was a challenge

I had some things go my way and my opponent had some bad luck, but that's the nature of the game. You have to take advantage of your opponent's misfortune and to try make every situation advantageous to you