Dark Eldar - The Dilemma

[TheDoctor]

You know, I really hate to be that guy, but as arkirk said, you should probably pick a different army.

I've been playing pretty much nothing but my Craftworld Eldar since 6th came out, and I have been doing extremely well with them. And I would kill to be able to trade out all of my *super-amazing and awesome* guardians for warriors or wyches.

So if I can kick a** and take names with an old 4th edition codex, you should be able to do better with a much, much newer codex.

*severe sarcasm disclaimer*

[Clarkson]

Tons of DE people bitchin' about that you have to use tactics now to fight because new rules changed their broken lists of 5th..

give it a few months and DE will have a broken list for 6th and people will stop complaining..

people who hate the fact they cant hide in reserve first turn is a help for someone who wants to play a game w/o being diddled out of playing a fun game..

it the same for the rest of us.. Tau were once good.. a new edition came out and they lost out.. a newer one still and its still a wtf moment to them..

SoB have been shafted.. marines.. chaos.. daemons.. guard.. etc we all have had lists change because of edition or meta or codex changes.. So what? this is the game we love and play despite the changes.. so dont feel put out because raider/melta spam is pointless now.. adapt and change.. or else you are shoddy players..

[Inquisitor Shego]

Tons of DE people bitchin' about that you have to use tactics now to fight because new rules changed their broken lists of 5th..

give it a few months and DE will have a broken list for 6th and people will stop complaining..

people who hate the fact they cant hide in reserve first turn is a help for someone who wants to play a game w/o being diddled out of playing a fun game..

it the same for the rest of us.. Tau were once good.. a new edition came out and they lost out.. a newer one still and its still a wtf moment to them..

SoB have been shafted.. marines.. chaos.. daemons.. guard.. etc we all have had lists change because of edition or meta or codex changes.. So what? this is the game we love and play despite the changes.. so dont feel put out because raider/melta spam is pointless now.. adapt and change.. or else you are shoddy players..

Bold is Ad Homenin. Your words "So What?" tells me you actually have nothing to contribute to this. Your logic is, if one girl gets assaulted at a drunken frat party, all others should put up and shut up about it because their plight is no longer unique. Of course the difference between that example and what's going on here are 500 shades of severity darker, obviously, but I aim to shine a light on your logic.

As for hiding during the first turn, I dare say it gave your opponent a chance to reposition, and advance. The exception being if your opponent is playing a static gun line, something we can also debate being fun or not. Truth be told, we didn't need to hide in reserve first turn, during 5th ed. Now it would be a damn nice luxury.

As for "bitchin'" Well I'm not, genuinely. I'm explaining a case. I don't sit on warseer praying phil kelly's going to read this thread and change everything for me. I'm just doing what I always do. I'm voting with my wallet. I had a shopping list of 6 x venom + 2 x box of scourge + 1 x warrior. Not much, about £180. I now spend that elsewhere. Does GW know or care? I doubt it. What matters though is a theme I felt comfortable with, that of the raider swarm, has now been diluted, corrupted, and lets say nerfed for giggles. To those still playing their DE, winning with them, loving them, and this edition more than the last, I applaud you. Genuinely I applaud you. I think you're a credit to DE in general, but me. I'm pretty much out.

On the bright side, this lack of playing has led me to painting more, so I might finally have an army I finish.

[Xerkics]

Dark E are an amazing army with best round internal balance out of the current codices and options for tackling just about anything. IF you are not doing well with them its probably just not suitable for your playstyle. IG can be quite retarded though but its a crudface codex so.

[DeviantApostle]

DE did take a beating moving to 6th. Hopefully there's another proper errata in the works. Internal balance went from really good to messed up. Lota things that nobody took before are now better than the old 'wow' units. I still find DE rewarding to play, however. Their style suits me down to the ground.

Here's what happens to me with nightshields against infantry, let's see if it jibes. I move 6" into 24" range and shoot. Everything hits because of splinter racks, 5 wounds go in and generally I get a few casualties depending on the target. Let's say marines for the sake of discussion. Every dead marine is gold, 1-2 marines is what I generally get. They step up 6" and shoot... if they can because of terrain. If they're willing to risk coming out of cover because of my Razorwing's missiles or Disintegrators or whatever HS I have. So let's say they do move and shoot back, this would be 10 shots, let's assume best case scenario for them that they didn't take any meltaguns, but now we're only talking 8 or 9 shots. Let's say nine, so that 6 hit neatly on average. That's average 1 glance with S4. Then I get cover or flickerfields.

Let's review what I've achieved:
1. He had to move closer to me to take the shot. This may mean he's moved out of cover and vulnerable to my heavy support. It may mean it's an extra 6" my assault troops don't have to move. Advantage me.
2. I killed 1-2 marines. It's a small victory but every little bit counts against marines. Death by a thousand cuts.
3. In return, the worst I can expect on average is the loss of 1 hull point. Even that isn't certain. We're not even assuming here that he hasn't taken meltaguns, which don't contribute to this exchange at all thanks to 6" range from Nightshields. I'm also not counting the Raider's Lance or Disintegrator inflicting casualties for me, please note.

No, nothing in the book is amazing on its own. Alot of things got nerfed hard, AP3 power weapons do kinda smart. But if you want an army that you can wield like a hammer, play marines. Dark Eldar is about precision, timing and dirty pool. They are the scalpel to the marine's hammer.

[Soupcat]

Cool can i have your stuff?
Seriously though dark eldar are stupidly mobile, dark glances are much more reliable, and can have alot of models on the table. 2 HP venom spam is not going to work well anymore but it wasn't fantastic even in 5th as your dark light was short ranged and you never really want together that close.
I really cannot stress how important night shields are, assuming you play smart and can do math on the fly your opponents will be pulling out hair with how frustrating it is. We are struggling with anti air but so is everyone else and in the end we are still better of with flickering razor wings and battlebro farseer.

[Xerkics]

Um the amount of AP2 ranged weapons you can easily compensate incubi loss of ap2. People just need to learn to embrace change and change their lists not stick to the old and complain when they dont work.

[adreal]

@Adreal
what do you know, I can repeat what I said for soupcat for you. If you want

And also, I've played this dark eldar for TWO YEARS and know the transition between 5th ed and 6th ed. This experience from veterans
and if you want to know the ONLY list that really work for dark eldar in competitive environment is this (against any armies).

Archon with blaster, huskblade, soultrap, shadowfield
haemonculus with liquifier guns
4 unit of wracks contain 5 dude, champs plus liquifier guns riding venom with splinter cannon upgrade
2 unit of trueborn equip with 4 blasters riding venom with splinter cannon upgrade
3 ravagers
6 reavers with heatlances

I think this is around 1500pts. Some people would trade couple of wrack into wyches with haywire grenades, or trade 1/2 ravager for either voidraven/razorwing

You might want to mind your tone.

You have been Playing for two years, that's great, you have some experience with alot of the units in the codex, some work alittle different now (incubi can't kill termies, harlies have new cover save rules). But most are the same.

Heres the thing, combat doesn't really work now, and that's cool, our combat has always just been okay, wyches tied things up not steam rolled units, incubi were very costly, wracks were tough, monsterous creatures ment we didn't have ravagers. But shooting across the board has improved, and our shooting was already pretty good. So play the shooting game.

Dark eldar vehicles have options to improve their survivability, night shields force small arms closer (great against grey knights) and flickerfields are an invun save, which can be golden (though it's debateable if it's really needed now, another bonus of the new rules). Now yes, guard have better plains and tanks (the vendetta is all sorts of broken), but that's more a problem with the guard codex.

Also someone said that Reavers save is worse now, skilled rider adds +1 to their jink save, so when they flat out its still a 3+, and when they move normal it's a 4+.

[OgreBattle]

I don't really see how darklight/venomspam got any worse in this edition. DE have strong shooting and mobility, 6e has made their anti-tank shooting better, their mobility get more benefits, and now wyches just remove any vehicle they are in base contact with.

every complaint really is centered around a desire to jump into assault with terminators and come up victorious by a large margin. That wasn't the optimal way to fight them in 5e anyways. Shoot them down, fill them with poison.

Having access to Farseers also really boosts the lethatility of poison.

[Haravikk]

Open topped now useless?

Not sure how it's useless, it's still possible to assault for a start!

I think a lot of the issues are going to be things that need new codexes and a bit of time to sort out, as some people still have more anti-mech than they really need, which means raiders don't last long. But as excessive spam lists start to disappear, so too should the anti-mech we needed to deal with them; well, not disappear but go down to a saner level again.

I never had many tanks and didn't have enough anti-mech; in both cases because I don't have enough models (all metal army). In 6th my line up feels about right, other than still needing a Rhino that isn't 10 years old and painted light green anyway, so I think that as other armies come down to around the same level we'll see it all even out and Dark Eldar will still be fast and vicious. Not as fast and vicious, but better.

[Sithlord]

You have been Playing for two years, that's great, you have some experience with alot of the units in the codex, some work alittle different now (incubi can't kill termies, harlies have new cover save rules). But most are the same.

forgot to mention, that two years was dark eldar newest codex experience. Actually I already play dark eldar way back on 2003 (when they are still 3rd edition codex) but I would not mention that as that time, the rules are totally different. But back then, the dark eldar are actually a CC race. The very reason I choose them in 1st place (as my 1st race in 40k) was I'm a very agitated person, who wants to finish up a game up close and personal and as quickly as possible. Dark eldar of 3rd edition reflect this at that time. A very fast hard hitting CC armies, and dark eldar were very good on one thing at that time, divide and conquer with horrorfex/terrorfex (they make enemy pinning check failed at most time). I can pinned the rest of those bozos while I kill one unit at one time

Heres the thing, combat doesn't really work now, and that's cool, our combat has always just been okay, wyches tied things up not steam rolled units, incubi were very costly, wracks were tough, monsterous creatures ment we didn't have ravagers. But shooting across the board has improved, and our shooting was already pretty good. So play the shooting game.

Sadly now you mention this. Kinda reminding on CRAFTWORLD eldar right? They have speed, better tanks and better guns, not to mention psychic powers to make splinter racks like laughable thing (not to mention splinter racks only re-roll splinter rifle and splinter pistols NOT splinter cannon and splinter carbine).

Sadly, with current condition of codex... it's impossible to play a 'thematic list' to win. (see that kabalite list, where I field 3 warriors, ravager, reaver. That was suppose to be a TRUE kabal armies). Unlike the death korp of krieg (I play crap lot of infantry, as dictated as infantry regiment and win on it). What's matter a theme army list that you love to win, and now GW force me to play the non theme list to win (venom spam). I can tell you how much money i've spent on it. Sometimes people really want to collect an army (especially themed army) to win.

[adreal]

you want to take kabalites, yet you want to do combat?? Having WS4 and I5 doesn't make them close combat troops.

10 warriors
-blaster
-splinter cannon
-sybarite
-raider with night, flicker and splinter
=205pts

This unit at 24" has 8 TL splinter shots (hitting on 3's if moved 6" or 6's if going 12") and 4 to 6 non TL splinter shots (I would use 4 if going 6" and 6 if going 12")
at 18" it can engage tanks, or add a S8 AP2 shot
at 12" it has 16 TL splinter shots, a lance shot and atleast 4 cannon shots.

That is pretty good for something that clocks in at just over 200 points. And you don't even need all the upgrages I chose (sybarite and flicker). Makeing it 185 points, which is a steal for a scoring unit. Yes, spamming venoms is cheaper (points wise) I'm not arguing that, I don't think anyone will argue that point, but raider squads are bigger, so can be less hurt by an explosion, and can hold an objective about the same as the wrack unit, but deal damage easier. Plus if your raider is going to be assaulted, the occupents can overwatch, which makes splinter racks even better.

So a archon can clock in at about 150ish (kitted for combat)
incubi will be about 250ish
3 warrior squads 615
3 ravagers 375
You can get a small raver squad (5 strong) for 1500pts, it's not super spammy like a venom list would be, but thats a themy kabalite list that can atleast compete IMHO (it's no worse then in 5th ed, though combat is abit weaker)

[Haunter!]

OP's main delusion is that Dark Eldar are supposed to be a CC army and that Phil Kelly had promised they would be. No, he never said that and "offensive" power isn't just how hard you can throw a punch. DeviantApostle summed it up perfectly with his hammer and scalpel analogy. You can mindlessly swing a hammer around and cause some damage, but a scalpel requires you to know when and where to cut to cause real damage. Dark Eldar require more strategy and placement than just rushing forward and trying to get into assault.

If you want that, OP, try a Blood Angels army or even a Khorne Berserker army. You can keep a theme and still have your rush to assault.

[comradeda]

I remember the days of:
Archon, Punisher, Animus Vitae, Shadowfield, Combat Drugs, Vexantrope
6 x 10 Warriors, 2 with DLs
750 pts. Lots of gun for very low games.

[Nooodles]

I played DE from the 3rd edition and has only recently come back to the game. I do think they've become weaker in areas like spamy 100pts DL warrior but I still think they are a viable army. No you cant just charge into assault like space wolves and what not. But with combinations of different unit setup and fighting the right battle with the right units, you can still win. I think DE do have most the of the solutions for all our problems. The biggest problem of all is just balancing which solution to take with limited resources.

[Depulsor]

I have to agree with the OP to a degree... maybe that glasshammer doesnt hit for enough damage.
But to compare the voidrave to the vendetta is just wrong.
The pointcosts of the vendetta are MUCH too low. We all know this... maybe even GW knows this, but they like selling the kits, so they dont care.


DE are not on the top of the food chain, but on the other hand, they arent at the bottom either.
If you play with very competitive players, then it might hurt a little bit to play DE ... but in normal cases I think they are fine.
And dont forget: These top tier armies also dont have THAT many builds that are OP. So only playing to win will limit your options anyway, even if you play something other than DE.

[Gutlord Grom]

So, ultimately Sithlord , what do you want out of this thread?

I mean, this isn't really a discussion of tactics, or how you could improve your current list. This isn't really a discussion of the pro's and con's of running Dark Eldar as x-list or y-strategy. All we have here is the standard, infamous Warseer complaint thread where the 'issue' of the week is bandied about the communal water cooler and we kvetch about how the things we can't change in the immediate future. It's almost the reason 40k general exists : Join our forums for the despairing group hug!.

Because if that's what this thread is for, here, let the Chaos Marines pass you some handkerchiefs while the Craftworld Eldar close the blinds and the Tyranids cook up some chicken soup for you. Hey, look even the orks are here, because you guys are buddies, the un-updated duo! If you just want to complain, they're here for you. Keep in mind, you'll have to be there for them when their next "My army is unplayable!" thread rolls around, rooting for them as they tell anyone who disagrees that they clearly haven't played enough o their army to understand what they're going through.

Or...

You could do something about it.

Warseer has a tactics forum, and the 6th Edition Dark Eldar discussion is one of the top threads right now. I'm pretty sure you could pop in if you haven't already and look for help, look for suggestions. Put army lists in the lists forum and get some help; having a few extra pairs of eyes on an issue can really help. And really, the only other thing you can do is look at what you're playing against in your area. Come up with an all comers list that is meant to take on whatever other gamers in your local area usually field. Proxy stuff, try out new combinations once in a while for the hell of it. You might be surprised, or you might not. This is all kind of general advice, but its also really things that you're supposed to do anyway. instead of focusing on what you can't do (My army of paper-thin welter wights do terrible in meat grinder assaults! Curses!) and what it actually can do (high maneuverability getting your grunts where you actually want it to go, and getting it there in one piece so it can unleash ranged hell)

My two cents.

[kaimarion]

The DE are a Glass Hammer army just minus the Hammer part.
My opinion is based purely on my experience playing against and using DE.

[Scribe of Khorne]

Is this still not a successful list? If the argument is that they suck in CC, that hasnt changed either, they sucked in cc in 5th as well.

Haemo

3 - Blasterborn x 3/Venoms w/2 SC's

9 Wracks - Raider
5 Warriors - Venom
2 x 10 Wyches - Raider

2 - Reavers x 6, 2 Heatlance

Ravager
Razorwing
Razorwing

I mean yes, everything dies to a stiff breeze, but that happened in 5th as well. Get those Nightshields and make some space? Everything is a fast skimmer, so I fail to see the issues here I guess.

[Drasanil]

In short: want DE to CC? Shadowfield Archon FortuneDoom Seer council (or FortuneDoom Harlies if you want less 'ard and more choppy) and face-tank like a champ.