Dark Eldar - The Dilemma

[Hawthorne]

All this reads as (from the people complaining) Dark Eldar don't work the exact way they used to and I'm resistant to change; they must suck.

Same thing, as far as I'm concerned, that happened when Tyranids got updated for 5th. People wanted to use the same army list as before and it didn't work anymore so they must suck.


By the way, I love the "AP3=useless" priceless. Apparently if it can't cut the armor of a very small selection of units (terminators, some characters, sanguinary guard, etc.) it must be useless.
Las cannons are useless because they can only kill 1 Ork Boy at a time.

[Corporeal]

I must be one of the freaks you people only hear about.

I'm still running two venoms with dual cannons.. but this time I've stuck on nightshields to give myself a bit of an edge. the less retaliatory fire, the better.

ravagers.. have gone hybrid. that's right. HYBRID. two lances with a disintegrator. with aethersails. I love having extra movement during the movement phase, coupled with a nice nudge in the shooting phase.

I run carbine/cannonborn with the duke. the amount of wounds I can crank out with them is just staggering. they are my go-to unit for taking a good chunk out of multiwound models and hordes.

[FreyrRagnar]

Not sure if mentioned before, but mandrakes rock.
Take a unit of 5 to 10, but a haemonculus in there with a portal. Thanks to the stealth rule you have a cover save. Then the haemonculus gives the unit a pain token wich gives them a FnP, yesh, it's only 5+ ow wait, they even start out with baleblast then? Yesh they do, that is 2 shots from every drake you got in there. That's 10 to 20 shots at str 4 ap 4 that can pin your foe.

[scapegoatboy69]

(if I play as venom against IG, I have phyric victory instead). Well that's just how dark eldar works now.

You're trying to outshoot one of the best shooty armies in the game. Of course you're going to have a hard time of it.

So, don't try to beat them at their own game. Change the rules and bring something different.


@ Ragnar: You aren't infiltrating them, right?

[FreyrRagnar]

Actually, I do infiltrate them. You can do that now, and where depends on if I deploy first or not.
Ow, prefer to infiltrate into a building.

[FreyrRagnar]

Actually, I do infiltrate them. You can do that now, and where depends on if I deploy first or not.
Ow, prefer to infiltrate into a building.

[BigHammer]

Actually, I do infiltrate them. You can do that now, and where depends on if I deploy first or not.
Ow, prefer to infiltrate into a building.

A character can't start the game in a unit of infiltrators. Even if they don't "infiltrate". Unless that character also has the infiltrate rule, but Haemonculi don't. It's unfortunate, but thems the rules.

[Drasanil]

By the way, I love the "AP3=useless" priceless. Apparently if it can't cut the armor of a very small selection of units (terminators, some characters, sanguinary guard, etc.) it must be useless. Las cannons are useless because they can only kill 1 Ork Boy at a time.

Didn't think that through did you? DE are low strength, low toughness, low armour and high initiative. The very purpose of those newly AP3 weapons was to give them a fighting chance against that specific 'very small selection of units'. Hence why most people consider them to have lost their use, because most of the things you'd actually want to point them at will more often than not be 2+ armour save totting combat goons. Your ill-conceived lascannon/ork comparison falls flat on it's face, because lascannons were never designed to pick off ork boyz and subsequently prevented from doing so adequately.

[Frep]

Didn't think that through did you? DE are low strength, low toughness, low armour and high initiative. The very purpose of those newly AP3 weapons was to give them a fighting chance against that specific 'very small selection of units'. Hence why most people consider them to have lost their use, because most of the things you'd actually want to point them at will more often than not be 2+ armour save totting combat goons. Your ill-conceived lascannon/ork comparison falls flat on it's face, because lascannons were never designed to pick off ork boyz and subsequently prevented from doing so adequately.

And incubi were never reallly intended to kill those special units. Virtually every terminator outside of the Deathwing has been rocking a Hammer and Storm shiled for the last three or four years and would slap around any incubi they faced. That's why the DE have disintigrator Ravagers. There are a few targets that Incbubi can't hurt, but lots they can really put the pain on.

Yes, Mega Nobs and Termis are out, but did you really stand much of a chance against them beforehand? Honestly to me the AP3 of Incubi is like a friendly reminder saying "you really shouldn't be messing with those guys anyhow."

[Drasanil]

And incubi were never reallly intended to kill those special units. Virtually every terminator outside of the Deathwing has been rocking a Hammer and Storm shiled for the last three or four years and would slap around any incubi they faced. That's why the DE have disintigrator Ravagers. There are a few targets that Incbubi can't hurt, but lots they can really put the pain on.

Yes, Mega Nobs and Termis are out, but did you really stand much of a chance against them beforehand? Honestly to me the AP3 of Incubi is like a friendly reminder saying "you really shouldn't be messing with those guys anyhow."

Was thinking more about the Huskblade, Electro Whip and Agonisers for Archons and Succubi, especially the Huskblade given it's high price tag, with regards to introduction of challenges and the big boost 2+ save characters got from them. But yes the Incubi too, they're not exactly cheap and they're supposed to be dark eldar's premiere melee unit there's really no reason they shouldn't be packing AP2 weapons. Taking expensive elite slot melee units for the 'privilege' of chewing through tac marines does grate a little.

I don't think they should be wrecking Meganobz, non-TH/SS Termies and the like, but with proper support it should still be viable soften them first then sweep in to clean up.

(As aside this is my only real gripe with DE in 6e, the lack of viable AP2 melee weapons, I know they're not primarily a combat army, but having the option to get stuck in once in a while would be fun, we're not Tau.)

[Sildani]

Wow, some really good insights here. A question please: what's a good loadout for a Succubus these days that's killy and cost effective? She'll be run with a squad of wyches.

[adreal]

A venom blade on a Succubus wouldn't be too bad, she should get alot of wounds in

[BigHammer]

Wow, some really good insights here. A question please: what's a good loadout for a Succubus these days that's killy and cost effective? She'll be run with a squad of wyches.

I run mine with an electro-corrosive whip and a venom blade. Sometimes with haywires, sometimes without. Less than the base cost of a space marine captain, before he buys any wargear. Can't handle 2+ saves, but that's what all our AP2 shooting is for. The EC whip can really mess up a space marine's day and gives you AP3 for going up against regular troopers. Against anything with high toughness or low armour saves the venom blade is pretty deadly. Currently have her in a unit of Grotesques and a haemonculus, so she's at least S4 on the charge (possibly higher with combat drugs), which means she's usually as good as or better off than having an agoniser; 4+ to wound if you're str 5 is a bit annoying, the whip has no such downside. Wound a high-strength model once or twice with the whip then finish them with the venom blade (unless they're not very tough, of course).

As a side-note, you can put a succubus in a squad of craftworld warlocks, give one of the warlocks enhance and she's now WS/I 9. Or do the same with Lelith. WS/I 10 (which is essentially +1 attack as well...). The only embuggrance is you can't transport them together :|

[Saunders]

Can't the Incubus squad leader do AP2?

[Drasanil]

Can't the Incubus squad leader do AP2?

Yes, if you get him the Darth Maul weapons.

[FreyrRagnar]

A character can't start the game in a unit of infiltrators. Even if they don't "infiltrate". Unless that character also has the infiltrate rule, but Haemonculi don't. It's unfortunate, but thems the rules.

Da-amn, mis read it. Back to the drawing board for me then.

[FreyrRagnar]

A character can't start the game in a unit of infiltrators. Even if they don't "infiltrate". Unless that character also has the infiltrate rule, but Haemonculi don't. It's unfortunate, but thems the rules.

Da-amn, mis read it. Back to the drawing board for me then.

[Ahra Returns]

Okay first of all this is ehemmm a whining thread But I mean no offense though, this thread aside from being a whiner also serve as summary of all these 2 years playing dark eldar who are made by Phil Kelly. So let me explain my experience playing the dark eldar.


So conclusion... dark eldar are becoming increasingly weak in 6th edition but that's only because they already weak in 1st place. Phill kelly failed to deliver what he would called glasshammer as he forgot to increase offensive power (most unit don't have them, the only who has it is archon, incubi and royal court). My hope is for future updates for dark eldar (either codex or FAQ if they are wanting it to change it immediately) that the glasshammer style armies can be reach for phil and GW. And as for you guys, is there any counter-argument or some backing argument to what I said? Discuss....

OK,

Well - to preface, I've been playing Dark Eldar since the dawn of 3rd ed - not that I can actually prove that over so remote a medium as the internet, but it's worth mentioning I feel. So my experience comes from many, many, many games over numerous editions - the most successful of which was categorically 5th - I loved being a Dark Eldar player last edition.

I had great success with Dark Eldar in 5th, without blowing my 'own trumpet' and not that it particularly means anything, but every local tournament I attended I won, I took best Dark Eldar at ToS when I went and roughly 60% of my victories arose from tabling my opponent - this isn't self-aggrandizment, it's just as a preface to any argument similar to the following:

'@soupcat
I don't mean to disrespect, but you are talking like you never play as dark eldar OR you do play dark eldar but not very long time OR you do play dark eldar for long time but your gaming group do not have power gamer or sort (I really like the last one but extremely rare in any cases).'

Most of my friends are 'competitive' players, they run the most optimal lists they can devise. The two tournament games I lost, in 5th, were to Imperial Guard Chimera spam and Grey Knight Acolyte Psyback + Psyfleman spam.

Armies that are quite good at generating the pre-requisite number of shots to take down an army of light skimmers.

In 6th - I'm finding that my army functions in primarily the same manner as it did in 5th - OK, tactics like going all reserve don't work - but the core of how the DEldar codex operates is fundementally the same. You mention that it's your belief that 'Venom Spam' is the only way to play, but that depends on how you define venom spam. If you're still running blaster borns, 5 man warrior/venoms and tri-ravager, that's what I consider Venom Spam. But that's not what I used in 5th - and found my list, in a mirror match, had the advantage against a V-spam list.

I hesitate to say it, but even last edition we weren't a close combat army. Sure, you could fill your list with things that hit people at short range, but maximizing firepower is where our strength lay last edition and where it lies now. I can appreciate, if you wanted to play close combat Dark Eldar, then you might be upset this edition thanks to the changes to Incubi and Agonisers - I don't really want to comment on that as it's not my way of playing.

What my games have taught me so far that Wyches are now a bit of a liability. I used to take a squad for counter-assault/tarpitting, but RCL and Overwatch, combined with flamers, means that whatever Wyches I had before have been trimmed as 'fat'. Haywire Grenades are great, but I'd rather get them via Scourge.

I've also found that, though I got INCREDIBLE use out of Razorwings last edition, they're not so hot this ed. I'd much rather take a single Void Raven and then 2 ravagers. Quite simply; I've found that focusing on redundancy, firepower and Lance/Splinter is the most effective way to play right now. At least in my local environment.

The list I'm currently trying (because I have a large collection and like to make alterations) is as follows: - This is not, by any means, what I'm suggesting is the best list ever, it's simply something that I'm testing that has been victorious so far.

Archon
- Blaster (BS7 Blaster with Precision Shots is good), Agoniser, Haywire Grenades and Shadowfields - 130 pts

Trueborn
- 3 Trueborn, 2 Dark Lances, Venom with Additional Splinter Cannon and Nightshield - 161 pts

Trueborn
- 3 Trueborn, 2 Dark Lances, Venom with Additional Splinter Cannon and Nightshield - 161 pts

Warrior Squad
- 10 Warriors, Splinter Cannon, Blaster, Raider with Nightshield and Splinter Racks - 195 pts

Warrior Squad *Archon joins this unit
- 8 Warriors, Blaster, Raider with Nightshield and Splinter Racks - 167 pts

Warrior Squad
- 5 Warriors, Blaster, Venom with Additional Splinter Cannon and Nightshield - 135 pts

Warrior Squad
- 5 Warriors, Blaster, Venom with Additional Splinter Cannon and Nightshield - 135 pts

Void Raven, 2 Shatterfield Missiles, Flickerfield and Nightshield - 185 pts

Ravager, 3 Dark Lances and Nightshield - 115 pts

Ravager, 3 Dark Lances and Nightshield - 115 pts

1,499 pts.

Do I ever need to assault? Do I ever need to deal with Overwatch, RCL or not being able to move 12, dismount and charge? Nope. So those 'Nerfs' don't really affect me.

Last game I killed 450 pts of Tyranids in my first shooting phase, and my shooting was pretty average. Moving 6 and firing splinter rifles from the back of vehicles is amazing, especially in combination with Splinter Racks and Raiders.

OK - I'd be the first to say ''One off examples don't mean anything'' - but it's not been a one off. With the amount of lances we have at our disposal (and the changes with Hull Points) I don't struggle with vehicles, I really don't struggle at all with massed troops. Deathstars can be attacked from the sides and torrented away and even if something does reach my lines in can assault a small unit... then be shot to pieces.

Use your speed to pull the enemy into to open areas, we get a 5+ cover save just for moving so make sure your vehicles don't stand still. Make sure you don't clump up so things like Manticores can't auto you to death. Yeah, 3 Vendetta's aren't pleasant but (without any troops inside) that's a THIRD of the guys army at 1500. Take strategic traits for your general to affect his reserve rolls of gain Nightfighting (which is also a massive buff for us - 3+ cover save whilst being in range with splinter cannons/lances? Yes please).

Another question - why does a roll of a 4+ on the damage chart affect our fliers any more than an enemy flier? We're not open topped and at least we can take a flickerfield for a 5++ save - other fliers have to Jink which means they can only snap-shot back. Yes, Vendetta's are better and cheaper than our fliers, but there are 'auto-include' points efficient choices in each army.

Let's break down this opposing army you posted:

1 libby
2 assault squad of 5 men (infernus pistol and powerweapons), each ride in razorback with heavy flamers
1 assault squad of 10 men, in rhino (this one fitted with all those infernus pistols and powerfist)
3 baal predator (both fitter with heavy bolter sponson, one of them being inferno cannon)
2 predator (autocannon turret, lascannon sponsons)
1 stormraven gunship

Bolters and Inferno Pistols? Hello Nightshield. Assault cannons on Baals? Hello Nightshield. Outflanking? Hello strategic traits and Dark Eldar mobility. If the Baals are outflanking, that's 4 things he has in reserve. Play aggressively and wipe out what's on the table.

Flamer templates are only an issue if your guys are on the table and you don't have to dismount until the end game - more than enough time to de-fang those predators. I came up against a virtually identical army in the last tournament I went to and didn't find it a struggle at all.

The Vendetta + Manticore army... now THAT is something to worry about - don't clump up, try and manouvre for side shots on the tanks as much as possible, but that's a much much stronger army than the Angel list. At least from a taking it on with ShootyDeldar.

As much as you might not rate raiders, they can and do get into side arcs and put hurt on tanks. AP 2 means that if you get a penetrating roll, you've a one in 3 of taking out a Leman Russ. They have a psychological impact against anyone who's played Dark Eldar before.

All I can say is, concentrate your Lance fire to take out vehicles and you should have more than enough splinter weapons (in a shooty force) to kill the infantry.

Rant over - but Dark Eldar aren't weak, not by a long stretch, at least not in my experience of playing them in tournaments over 3 and a bit editions.


Also, incase anyone missed, Reavers have Skilled Rider so get a 3++ coversave when turbo-bossting.
*2 cents*.

[Jayden63]

Trueborn
- 3 Trueborn, 2 Dark Lances, Venom with Additional Splinter Cannon and Nightshield - 161 pts

Trueborn
- 3 Trueborn, 2 Dark Lances, Venom with Additional Splinter Cannon and Nightshield - 161 pts

I hadn't considered this for trueborn squad, but now that heavyies can move and shoot the DLs seem like they would be a good replacement for the 4 blasterborn I used to take. Less shots, but much greater range and keeping the whole thing out of harms way.

I think I will try this.

[Haunter!]

I hadn't considered this for trueborn squad, but now that heavyies can move and shoot the DLs seem like they would be a good replacement for the 4 blasterborn I used to take. Less shots, but much greater range and keeping the whole thing out of harms way.

I think I will try this.

They also don't get prioritized as much as blasterborn from what I've been seeing. People don't expect those three man squads to do much damage until it's too late.