My first game with Vamps

[Warrior of Chaos]

Fantasy Army: BoC

Hello all,

Wednesday I will be playing my new VC army for the first time. I'm currently entered in an escalation league and we are sitting right now at a meager 750pts. My opponent will be High Elves and he appears to be using what came in the Isle of Blood box. Here is my current list I will be playing and I was just wondering if there are any experienced VC players out there to give it the once over.

Lvl 2 Necro - Master of the Dead (General - goes with ghouls); I will probably hang back with him and his unit and let the skells and zombies bear the brunt of the meat grinder.
Lvl 1 Necro - (goes with Skeletons)

x10 Crypt Ghouls - It is all I have right now, but I am planning on getting two more boxes before the end of the escalation league in October.
x22 Zombies - Mus/Stand (have 58 more in reserve to be raised)
x25 Skellies - Mus/Stand, Shield, Spears (Have 15 more in reserve for raising); Lichebone Pendant
x2 Spirit Host - (I do have 1 more of these guys if you think I should bring all 3 instead of 2)
x3 Vargeist

= 749pts

Suggestions and comments would be very welcome!

[m1acca1551]

What other units do you have available to use?

I'd bunker your lord in the zombies, and use the ghouls as a flanking force to help out the skellies. Your spirit host will come in handy at redirecting his cav. My only issue with this list is that apart fro
m the vargheist you are fighting a war of attrition against and army which will be able to out shoot-move and fight you. let us know what other units you have.

[Warrior of Chaos]

Well currently I have what is listed built. I am also currently trying to get a unit of x10 Black Knights assembled because the escalation league will be moving up to 1000pts soon. I also have a box of Hex's and a Mortis Engine (boxed) on the shelf. My goal is to purchase x2 boxes of GG and x2 boxes of Ghouls before we move into the 1500pt range ( I also need a corpse cart). I know I have an uphill battle going in on this but unfortunately I have a limited selection available to me at the moment. One issue I see is that I have a bunch of cheap infantry and not a much in the way of re-directors or hard hitters. Do you think I should get a couple of boxes of DW's before I go too crazy buying GG and Ghouls?

edit: I do have x9 of the Black Knights built now.

[Soundwave]

Vargiest are good,but in a small army like this they may let you down as they fly off due to lack of leadership and frenzy. Your black knights will make a safer substitute. But like me i love the the models as i am sure you do to! So for safe use you can set these guys up blocking there own line of sight on an angle or the such and reposition them when the time is right. Also these guys do not like to be shot at so keep them near a necro or both to regenerate a couple of wounds.

[Moss]

I would swap the ghouls and the lvl 1 necro for the hexwraiths and the other spirit host. Something like:

level 2 necromancer
25 skeletons
20 zombies
spirit host
spirit host
spirit host
5 hexwraiths
3 vargheists

You would have two hard hitters and enough chaff to make sure you fight only the units you want to fight. Plus, ethereals in low-point games are just mean.

I would save the ghouls for when you have enough to count. Unless you're confident you can set them up for a good supporting flank charge like m1acca suggests, they'll probably just end up being free victory points.

[Soundwave]

You have to watch the amount of ethereals vs high elves due to that cruddy gem of light(all attacks from the bearer and his unit count as magical) often found in sword master units... also maybe consider 10 more zombies behind the 20 (spaced with enough room to grow) to bring more bodies to bear from the start. High elves do not like being swamped.

[-Totenkopf-]

I think the hexwraiths are the only thing you have to deal with sword masters.. Those things are nasty and in the isle of blood so start figuring out how to kill them.. I've seen them make an 8 strong unti of chaos knights disappear..

[Thindol]

Can you add some dire wolves? Do you have any? They make good chaff to soak up shooting. Moss' list was pretty decent though maybe I would drop the hex wraiths on favour of a varghulf? He hits hard and has some decent staying power against elves.

[immortal git]

I would second the vargulf, has serious hitting power at low points and if you keep it close to your necros you can keep healing it up

[Warrior of Chaos]

I would swap the ghouls and the lvl 1 necro for the hexwraiths and the other spirit host. Something like:

level 2 necromancer
25 skeletons
20 zombies
spirit host
spirit host
spirit host
5 hexwraiths
3 vargheists

You would have two hard hitters and enough chaff to make sure you fight only the units you want to fight. Plus, ethereals in low-point games are just mean.

I would save the ghouls for when you have enough to count. Unless you're confident you can set them up for a good supporting flank charge like m1acca suggests, they'll probably just end up being free victory points.

This doesn't look like a bad option. Do you think limiting the VC to a single caster (point of failure) is wise choice? I got a couple more minor models assembled....(a single Cairn Wraith and a Banshee), though I don't know how using them in a Hero role would fair at such a low point game.

I think the hexwraiths are the only thing you have to deal with sword masters.

I know they don't allow armor saves, but do you think they'll last long against the meat grinder the SM's can bring? My plan for the SM's was to try to pin them down early with a tar pit and hopefully flank them with something else. It is so hard to work strategy with an army you haven't played, but I have played against High Elves a few times (w/ WoC) and know I could end up taking a real beating.

I don't have a Vargulf or Dogs right now but they are planned. I think I may have to accept that this battle will not be optimal for me until I purchase a few more units. If only money grew on trees...LOL. Also, would you guys keep the spirit host together in a big unit...or break them up into small harassing elements?

[Marmaduc]

Having faced the HE before I think that with a few calculations you will discover that you don't have anything in the list that can tarpit the SM. The Hexwraith suggestion was not as a tarpit but simply to do the ride through thing and get the auto hit S5 attacks and whittle the SM down. Against the Zombies and Skellies a 10-elf SM unit will score somewhere around 10-12 kills (kills that is, including parry saves) plus another 1 or 2 from ranks and/or standards. You will be very lucky to cause a single wound in response. Even with 3 ranks, charge and standard the 10-12 kills plus crumble could wipe out the zombie unit altogether in one round! I've tried 2 40 zombie units myself and they didn't work either. I would drop the zombies and beef up the skellies (sword & board), add FC and ideally the Screaming Banner as well and see if that'll do the trick. Maybe keep a 10 man Zombie unit that you intend to grow but I wouldn't bother as the skellies are better spent.

Also at 1000 points I don't think that you will actually need 3 Spirit Hosts (especially with a unit if Hexwraiths), but I like the ghost-y theme in your list! I'd use the Spirit Hosts to lock up enemy flankers or redirectors like Giant Eagles, Ellyrian Reavers, Archer units, stuff that won't have to much CR bonus and no magic items.

Watch out for Magic Missile spells! A single fireball can destroy a either the Hexwraiths or the Spirit Host with just a couple good rolls!

[Moss]

This doesn't look like a bad option. Do you think limiting the VC to a single caster (point of failure) is wise choice? I got a couple more minor models assembled....(a single Cairn Wraith and a Banshee), though I don't know how using them in a Hero role would fair at such a low point game.

I don't think it's an issue in such a small game. Not many things should be able to make it to the front of your zombie bunker, especially with so many spirit hosts around to take the charges.

Also, would you guys keep the spirit host together in a big unit...or break them up into small harassing elements?

I say three seperate units. Yeah, they're more susceptible to being wiped out by MMs, but with three you have the ability to tarpit THREE (small) units of his, just like Marmaduc says.

Marmaduc is also right about the hexwraiths not being a tarpit. They're probably best used to ride through units, or to flank something engaged by your skeletons. Or to charge and kill the aforementioned small units.

[Warrior of Chaos]

Thanks for the advice guys. I'll try to tag on a small summary batrep to this to let you know how it worked out. I got through tomorrow to make some adjustments. If you guys have any other ideas that pop up in the meantime, please feel free to post them. I think making some adjustments to get the third spirit host in will be good. I'd still like to hold onto the second Necro, but will have to see. If I am going to use Hex's I'll need to assemble them quickly to get them ready for game day. I'll also likely drop the ghouls as per suggestions.

[m1acca1551]

If your wanting to take vargulfs, use vargheists as proxies. At 1000pts i'd take 2, he hate units that can out fight and out move them. Reavers wont be able to stop them, and once behind enemy line the sm will have to be drawn out the battle line to counter. This presents you an opportunity to outflank or charge the rear of the unit.

Currently your list lacks manouverabilty against an army renound for be quick and deady, a unit of reaver will be able to skirt behind your battle line and turn a flank or worse assasinate your caster. hex wraiths whilst great again will be playing catchup, vargulfs will not.

[Moss]

At 1000pts, two Varghulfs will take you over the 25% rare allotment.

[artisturn]

I would suggest giving your Necro the Cursed Book . In such a small point game the hexes contained within the book will help against the High Elves and will give access to other lores your Necro wouldn't be able use.

[Warrior of Chaos]

Hey guys,

The game is tomorrow (750pts), so provided no cancellations, this is what I have (approximately).

x1 lvl2 Necro; MotD; The item which gives Vanhel's

x2 Spirit Host
x20 Zombies
x30 Skellies; HW/Sh
x8 Black Knights; Lances, barding

Unfortunately, I can't proxy models. The escalation league requires we play with what we have built for the league. The vargulfs are a fantastic idea, but alas I cannot do it yet....This low point game makes it really hard to choose what to use. Thoughts?

Side Question: I know the Isle of Blood box contains SM's, Pheonix Guard, Dragon Princes (?) and Spearmen...I think a bolt thrower. What size elements can I be expecting to face on the Helfs side (750pts)? I think they quite pricy per model...

EDIT: another issue I keep running into is that I have a bunch of special choices, but at these points, I can't have have my cake and eat it too. I won't be able to get the hex's together in time, so I'll try the BK's. I can get eight of them as opponsed to the baitable Vargeists.

[m1acca1551]

Tuff one, black knights are more survivable but there not cc monsters like vargheists. Big call i'd take the varggheists there wont be much at 750pts that can draw them away for 2 long and very few big nasty units that can out fight them.

[Marmaduc]

Isle of Blood does not have a Bolt Thrower or Dragon Princes. It has Ellyrian Reavers (Fast Light Cav) and Lothern Sea Guard (spearmen with bows) and not regular spearmen. The HE battalion box has Silver Helms and a Bolt Thrower. Of course what he brings depends on how anal you guys are about proxies. At 750 pts you should expect infantry in 10 elf units and any cavalry in 5 elf units, maybe one or two eagles. Special infantry will also probably be in 10 elf units with FC but he could squeeze in a 15 elf unit if he makes deep sacrifices in other places. Most likely he'll skip the cav and BT. If not, then you can get a good advantage on point efficiency.
750 pts is an extremely odd and difficult point value to play, particularly for elves as their core choice can fit very neatly into 125 or 250 pt blocks, not at all into 187.5. The point value of the game and the cost of the HE core units should be awkward enough for him to prevent any killer units beyond the standard Swordmaster choppy-ness.

[Warrior of Chaos]

OK gentlemen, I'm back with a win for Vampires under my belt! Woot!

Got into the store today and the gentleman I played managed to actually have 1000pts available to play. I didn't expect this since we had agreed to 750pts. I hastily adjusted my list and ended up with around 969pts. On the upside, he didn't bring an optimized High Elfs list, in fact I was rather shocked since he didn't bring any cavalry.

His list consisted of (approximately):
1 Prince (had magic bow that allows 3 shots?)
x2 Lvl 1 Casters (Light and High Magic)

x12 SM of H
x12 Sea Guard
x18 Spearmen
_____________________________

Anyways I had: ( had to tweak a few things for 1000pts) and didn't have much time for calculations because it was going to be a quickie game before work.

x2 Necros
x3 Vargeists
x40 Skellies
x60 Zombies
x3 Spirit Host
______________________
Turn 1: + he opened up some march moves and magic. He used Bansishment and some fire damage spell I am not familiar with. Took a few throwaway casualties and lost a spirit host (2 remaining). He shot me some on another spirit host with his magic bow.
- I moved forward and put my spirit hosts in his path. Brought the vargeists around to his flank (with the big spears block). He put a lone mage by himself (yeah I know...), and the Gaze of Nagash finishes him off without further complaint.

Turn 2: +he charged his big spear block into the zombies and killed a lot, but he took a beating back from the horde (and flubbed a bunch of armor saves). I lost combat and lost three more to crumble.
-I flanked charged his big block of spears and with the vargeists and charged a spirit host into his Sea Guard to hold them up. Reformed the skellies to face towards the approaching SM.

Turn 3: +his spearmen got decimated by the the zombies and vargeists..."run away". Vargeist pursue, miss catching them by one inch.
-The spirit host breaks his sea guard unit and the flee but are not caught. He has nothing to hurt it, so it is static res vs what I could kill (+charge bonus). He lost by 1 and then rolled an 11 on leadership.

Turn 4: + His sword masters get into the skellies and the skellies die in droves. More crumble, but my Necro escapes with 1 wound remaining. I try to raise and he shuts it down. Rallies the sea guard and finishes the spirit host off with his guy with the bow. Spearmen block doesn't rally.
- Vargeist catch the fleeing spearmen.

Turn 5: +Gets the seaguard into zombies and they are wiped out.
- I flank the SM's with zombies and skellies and get off Vanhel's from the book. SM's take a huge beating...and I do too. They don't flee and hold to the bitter end.

Turn 6: +His last SM's are slain. His last unit on the board is the prince.

*In total I lost all three Spirit Hosts and my Necro General (didn't crumble because of the second Necro..phew).


I'm sure I missed a bunch but this is just to show a general run down of how it sorta went...We had to be quick and I wasn't expecting the points bump. I appreciate all of your advice. Thanks a bunch! In the end, I'd say I had above average rolls with the zombies and I would not expect a similar output in the future. My opponent hasn't played in a very long time and I think that his High Elf list was very weak compared to other Helf lists I've faced. In fact this is the first time I've ever beaten Helfs so I'll take the win with a grain of salt. We have a rematch scheduled for Saturday (1000pts)<-- At least I hope he doesn't change it at the last minute and not email me....