Where are the Flakk Missiles?

[Vaktathi]

Another possible issue isn't necessarily so much the lack of AA guns, it's that they up-armored most of the flyers to make them functional as "skimmers" but didn't reduce the AV when they made them Flyers again. Under IA rules they were almost all AV10, a few were AV11 (like the Valkyrie, which used to be closer to 200pts after kit), only stuff like the Thunderhawk was AV12. When they're AV10, lost of non-AA guns are really useful against aircraft, stuff like heavy bolters, multilasers, heavy stubbers, etc. When they're mostly AV11 or AV12 with Jink, such weapons are not particularly useful.

[The_Klobb_Maniac]

I'm hoping to see a few things added via errata, or enough people running 5th's amassed lootas to help neutralize the potential spam. That said, I'd just arm yourself to be ready for the flyers if you're worried about them rather than cross your fingers.

@Vak
I think autocannon spam still covers it. IG with amassed Chims + ACs would probably be OK (even without Hydras) simply by weight of fire. You *know* they can cram a lot of efficient shots in when they work at it. Vendetta spam is probably the one to worry about; but even so they can only take on 3 targets per turn and if they slow down it's back to being easy pickings.

[Vaktathi]

The problem is that yes, while they can press in a ton of shots, those vehicles like Chimeras have about half the average lifespan of what they did before and often are some of the best targets for said flyers, and they're still not particularly spectacular at engaging the flyers. You need about 44 BS3 multilaser shots to kill an AV11 3HP flyer averaged between HP's and chance to outright kill, 66 if it's jinking. DE flyers might be afraid of it, but a Necron, BA/GK, or IG flying circus won't most likely, at least anything but the Hydras.

[MajorWesJanson]

Aegis Lines with quad Guns are making a major showing at my FLGS. They may not be enough to take on full flier spam, but they do a number on fliers thanks to interceptor and the number of shots they get. And the low price.

As for Flakk missiles, I can see them being handed out to encourage use of weaker units or less used units, like non-Space wolf Devastators, Havocs, maybe some Eldar missile launcher toting units.

[Bartali]

YeS well not everyone has cheese like psyriflemen

If only other codexes had other AA options such as guns with re-rolls either via twin linked or Prescience, or even had fliers of their own. Or even an allies system where you could take units from other codexes

[Vaktathi]

If only other codexes had other AA options such as guns with re-rolls either via twin linked or Prescience, or even had fliers of their own. Or even an allies system where you could take units from other codexes

To be fair, not all of them can do it with mobile nigh-unstunnable S8 48" gun platforms, and the allies rules aren't exactly even-handed in availability of AA capable allies.

[Bartali]

^^^^ It's not just the Rifledreads, in my original post it was also the 6 Razorbacks with twin-linked guns. Certainly I don't feel as though any Imperial list is in dire need of Flakk missiles at the moment

[Israfael]

It will most likely be Chaos, followed by Dark Angels getting them, followed by a FAQ for wargear standardization; as it was with stormshields.

I hope so, anyways. One less reason for other Astartes players to use my factions book.

[Cheeslord]

Another possible issue isn't necessarily so much the lack of AA guns, it's that they up-armored most of the flyers to make them functional as "skimmers" but didn't reduce the AV when they made them Flyers again. Under IA rules they were almost all AV10, a few were AV11 (like the Valkyrie, which used to be closer to 200pts after kit), only stuff like the Thunderhawk was AV12. When they're AV10, lost of non-AA guns are really useful against aircraft, stuff like heavy bolters, multilasers, heavy stubbers, etc. When they're mostly AV11 or AV12 with Jink, such weapons are not particularly useful.

QFT. I'm thinking mostly of the Guard codex here with cheap heavily armed and multi-role squadronable AV12 fliers. Making them fliers in apocalypse for no extra cost was ruinous brain-death in the first place, but easy enough to ignore since apocalypse is a mass of crazy balance issues even by GW usual standards. Now they've copied this over into normal games however (well at least we don't also have to add 12" to the range, but still...) I see doom and ruin.

Mark.

[ReveredChaplainDrake]

Remember how long it took Dark Angels and Black Templars to get the same Storm Shields that Mat Ward's pet chapters got? About three years. Basically the span of the entire edition. Expect many a DA bandwagoner between now and then. Besides, people are going to be using Dark Angels anyway for the Deathwing-as-1st-Company list. Players have been doing that old song and dance for decades, and genuinely effective missiles are likely just icing on the cake.

[Chem-Dog]

Besides, people are going to be using Dark Angels anyway for the Deathwing-as-1st-Company list. Players have been doing that old song and dance for decades

I see that as a legitimate proxy. Terminator armies are cool, mustering the first for a serious mission is also cool.
In the absence of any other way of running a 1st Co army without just pretending those Tactical squads are sternguard or buying into the GK codex, it's fine.

I even heard of one player, many moons ago, who was at least planning to build a "Deffwing" all Meganob army using the Deathwing rules to enable it as a legit army.

[Bartali]

Rumours from Faeit212 for the DA codex suggest Skyfire missiles will be a 5pt per model upgrade to Missile Launchers, but you'll have to loose Frag and Krak Missiles (and thus hit ground targets on sixes).

It's looking more and more like twin linking is the way to go for any ground to air shooting

[Ragnar69]

Rumours from Faeit212 for the DA codex suggest Skyfire missiles will be a 5pt per model upgrade to Missile Launchers, but you'll have to loose Frag and Krak Missiles (and thus hit ground targets on sixes).

It's looking more and more like twin linking is the way to go for any ground to air shooting

WTF? Then I woulnd't miss them when GW woulnd't update them in the other marines erratas

[Max_Killfactor]

If the DA Codex is strong enough, I could certainly see some codex hopping among marine players. Historically the DAs have never been strong on the go-to army chart in "marine-land", but the popularity of marines, coupled with an ability to get a much desired anti flyer capability, might be able to turn the tide against flyers in some hobby groups.

Yup. Green will be the new Grey most likely

[Caitsidhe]

In fairness, you can get the Flakk Missiles right now if you want to buy (or build your own) Fortification. The upgrade is available for 30pts.

[althathir]

I think that it will come within a month or so, as errata/faq, and/or white dwarf updates.
Maybe new AA vehicles or vehicle upgrades, like that SM whirlwind variant, ork flakk-truck, eldar something.... etc

If they intend to introduce them through codexes, some will have to wait to 7 or 8th edition at current rate.

Yeah, I tend to think we'll see new faqs with the starter or by games-day.

I'm not expecting them any time soon, or AA: I think they'll keep it like this until they've met their sales projections for flyers. People will buy fliers, their opponents will have to buy fliers to defend against them. When time has passed (ie. when everyone who plays competitively has bought a flyer), they will then release AA.

making a rule to defend against fliers makes GW no money.

I think the biggest offenders Vendettas, Ravens, and the cron fliers really won't care if flakk become wide spread. Vendettas & ravens are av 12, and Crons can fit in a ton of fliers. Also adding a skyfire upgrade to the whirlwind would move that tank, so I doubt a faq would negatively affect sales, it'd just help some players out abit.

The problem is that yes, while they can press in a ton of shots, those vehicles like Chimeras have about half the average lifespan of what they did before and often are some of the best targets for said flyers, and they're still not particularly spectacular at engaging the flyers. You need about 44 BS3 multilaser shots to kill an AV11 3HP flyer averaged between HP's and chance to outright kill, 66 if it's jinking. DE flyers might be afraid of it, but a Necron, BA/GK, or IG flying circus won't most likely, at least anything but the Hydras.

Chimeras have enough good reasons to use them that being a poor AA option shouldn't be the end of world. The IG codex right now has more answers for fliers than anyone.

Rumours from Faeit212 for the DA codex suggest Skyfire missiles will be a 5pt per model upgrade to Missile Launchers, but you'll have to loose Frag and Krak Missiles (and thus hit ground targets on sixes).

It's looking more and more like twin linking is the way to go for any ground to air shooting

If thats the case, fliers will dominate for a while. That said Faeit212 is a good site, but its more a site that reports rumours than an actual source. SO you have to have some salt ready (which Naftka typically points out, I have the site favorited)

[Voss]

They have to get more fliers out and sold before they nerf them down to the ground with widely available countermeasures.

At least, that is what my cynical side says.

But remember not every special rule has to be thrust out in the game immediately. There are still special rules in Fantasy 8th that haven't seen the light of day in Army Books yet.

[althathir]

There are widely available countermeasures and then there are flakk missiles which aren't the greatest by a long shot. I expect to see them soon, cause fighting fire with fire is still a better a solution.

[Vaktathi]

Chimeras have enough good reasons to use them that being a poor AA option shouldn't be the end of world. The IG codex right now has more answers for fliers than anyone.

I'd agree about the latter point without argument, however as for Chimeras usefulness in 6th, the changes to both vehicle and passenger scoring/contesting and the whole HP system make them rather awkward, though that's an issue for another thread. However, while IG do have more answers for flyers than anyone else, they still often have to tailor themselves to some degree to deal with more than a couple of flyers.

[Dangersaurus]

That said Faeit212 is a good site, but its more a site that reports rumours than an actual source. SO you have to have some salt ready (which Naftka typically points out, I have the site favorited)

The best thing about his blog is that he provides a level of insulation to the rumormongers from the frothing rumor stalkers. Conversation after the fact is usually more interesting here though.

In fairness, you can get the Flakk Missiles right now if you want to buy (or build your own) Fortification. The upgrade is available for 30pts.

Am I missing an option in my rulebook?