The Fan-Army Project

[TornadoCreator]

I'm sure people have already discussed this, but as there's no obviously active conversation going on about it now I thought I'd start a new thread rather than resurrect a dead conversation. So, the fan-made army project has been going for a while now, and it's been quite well embraced by my club with a fair few people collecting small armies using these lists so I thought I'd give my thoughts on some of these armies and see what other people think of them.

The website for this project is here - http://warhammerarmiesproject.blogspot.co.uk/

The Norse

Here's the PDF for the Norse book on Scribd, you can read it in browser or download is here - http://www.scribd.com/doc/34396670/W...r-Armies-Norse

I've already play tested this list myself and it seems quite balanced but there are a few things that seem wrong about it. The most obvious omission is Marauder Horsemen, and this is something I genuinely don't understand them not having. It seems almost obvious to me that the Norse should have both Marauders and Marauder Horsemen.
So with that, and considering this list has no cavalry at all, this isn't too much of a problem as the Ulfwerenar can do the job of fast cavalry but from an aesthetic, a lack of cavalry looks odd. A big problem lacks of cavalry does is mean that the Norse lack a decent long distance charging unit, and it lacks a bunker unit for mounted characters which is a pity as the Sleipner is a really cool mount. This does leave the Marauder Horsemen models as possible base models for character conversions, but they'll probably be easily picked off. The second big issue this list has is a lack of war machines which means it'll, ironically, have a problem dealing with big high toughness monsters. Still over all this is a cool list that I really like and it's easy to model.

My suggestions for models easily converted for this army; along with my judgement on each unit are as follows:

Bondsmen - Empire Free Company (with Chaos Marauder shields)
Bondsmen w/ bows - Bretonnian Peasant Archers
- Good standard infantry unit, cheap S3 T3 unit that can do hordes or support marauders.

Marauders - Chaos Marauders (without shields)
- These are basically Chaos Marauders with great weapons, but they're a bit pricey points wise.

Reavers - Chaos Marauders (with shields & green stuff armour)
- If you include throwing axes, at 11 points per model they're expensive but shocking versatile.

Whalers - Chaos Marauders (conversion needed for javalins)
- It's a basically a standard S3 T3 skirmisher with javalins for 7 points. Very useful.

Giant Wolves - Goblin Wolf Riders without the Goblin
- Never much liked using animals be them Sabretusks, Chaos Hounds etc. but these do the same job well enough.

Huscarls - Chaos Warriors (perhaps with Bretonnian Men-At-Arms shields)
- Decent moderately powerful infantry at a decent points cost. Worth using but nothing overly special.

Ulfwerenar* - Vampire Counts Crypt Ghouls with some green stuff for fur etc.
- Fantastic unit, skirmishers, S4 T4 WS4 makes them hardy, regenerate makes them resiliant, and they're FAST I5, M9. Still at 17 points each they don't feel overpowered, they're just extremely useful.

Einherjar - Dark Eldar Mandrakes work beautifully here.
- WS5, Ld10, Unbreakable for 13 points each. These are nice, and extremely good for fluff and theme. They suit being the centrepiece of an army if needed as they make a great tar-pit.

Berserkers - Empire Flagellants with some conversion can work
- Generally not a fan, I can't find a use for these that Einherjar or Reavers can't do better or cheaper.

Shield Maidens - ...honestly no ideas, I'm open to (and eager for) suggestions here.
- These are basically slightly better Reavers, and they break up the army with a feminine unit. Only problem is I can't find anything to represent them, otherwise these make good basic rank and file units.

Norse Dwarves - Either Dwarf Longbeards or Dwarf Ironbreakers with Chaos Marauder shields.
- Again there's very little here that the Einherjar doesn't do better, still they're cheaper and add some variety in style to the army.

Norse Hunters - Wood Elf Waywatchers
- These are the skirmishers you want to use over the Whalers. The only reason to use Whalers over these is if you're keeping back your special points for something else or need more core.

Snow Trolls - LotR Half Trolls work well for variety but Orc & Goblin Trolls are good choices too. Perhaps you could even use your Ogres here...
- I really like trolls, even with Stupidity, and these are basically just Trolls with Frenzy, which is awesome. A bit unweildy and pricey at 50 points each but useful.

Valkyries - Dark Eldar Scourges work well
- THE reason to spend your rare points. WS5 Ethereal, Fear causing, Fliers, who are Immune To Psychology and are extremely heavily armoured infantry. They rock. The book doesn't state that they're monsterous infantry or basic infantry so I'm assuming basic infantry, either way they're extremely cool.

War Mammoth - Forgeword Mammoth
- A really nice excuse to use the Forgeword model. This is a nice monster, very powerful, good crew with bows, if anything might be slightly overpowered at only 275 points.

Frost Giant** - Bestmen Ghorgon/Cygor converted, Daemon Prince w/o wings, or (my fave) Be'Lakor w/o wings.
- Someone's been watching Thor... still, this is the first "giant" styled model that I genuinely like. Giants are far too random, this works beautifully. Unfortunately while it's a nice model and seems balanced, it's a cannon-fire and arrow magnet which means it rarely survives past turn 2.

Ice Drake - Forgeworld Carmine Dragon
- Strong, very tough, perfect for destroying warmachines. If you're playing a big game, this is exactly what you need to protect the Frost Giants, unfortunately at 2000 points, one Ice Drake and one Frost Giant uses almost your entire rare budget, so compromises need to be made to fit them in. Nicely balanced though.

*This is a brilliant excuse to use the Forgeworld Skin Wolves but they're only 1 would basic infantry so should be on 25mm bases. You could just play them on larger bases and not care, but larger bases means you have less models in base contact with the enemy. You could have them as "counts as" for two Ulfwerenar if you really want. Personally, I say ask whoever you're playing against if you can house rule them as having double attacks and wounds but them being monstrous infantry, unit size 3-10 and costing double. This makes them 2 wounds, 4 attacks and 34 points each, which seems just as balanced to me. Anyone willing to let you use a fan-made army anyway will likely be OK with this change especially as it means you get to use awesome Forgeworld models, but the Crypt Ghouls do make a good alternative (so you could always keep Skin Wolves as a Storm Of Magic Bound Scroll option).

**Don't ever use a Giant model of any kind for Frost Giants. They play nothing like normal Giants. They don't fall over, they don't do random attacks, they're actually extremely efficient and operate far more intelligently. They seem more like this lists equivalent of the Dragon Ogre Shaggoth from Warriors Of Chaos.

Overall, this is a good army, it's got a nice theme to it and I like it, but it's missing things making it feel somewhat one note, focusing too much on raiders marching forward supported by icy magics and monsters... sure it's a consistant theme but it's slightly limiting.

Albion

Here's the PDF for the Albion Book on Scribd, you can read it in browser or download it here - http://www.scribd.com/doc/11168361/Warhammer-FB-Albion

I'm currently play testing this army and it's working fairly well, it's got a very nice Grimm fairy tales feel to it and is does capture a "fae" feeling but it also seems too focused on Ireland/Scotland which makes it feel too much like a british isles nationalists power trip, (but that might just be how it seems from the eyes of a jaded Englishman). This is a nice army as it's the only army other than Tomb Kings that fields entire units of Chariots, something that sets it quite appart from other armies similar to it like for example the Norse or even Chaos.

My suggestions for models for this army, and my opinions on the units are as follows:

Warbands - Empire State Troops painted with Celtic/Mercia themes.
- Simple S3 T3 standard infantry. They work fine.

Woad Raiders - Meh...
- An extra 3 points per model for +1 WS, Frenzy and the Woad special rule. Overpowered and far too inspired by Braveheart honestly.

Skirmishers - Empire State Troops with the Skaven sling upgrade pack and some green stuff, with a Celtic/Mercia paint theme.
- Decent basic skirmishers... although surely they could have come up with a better name for the unit.

Hunting Dogs - More Meh...
- Honestly, I've never used these but I'd imagine they would be about as useful as any other dog/wolf unit.

Clansmen Cavalry - Chaos Marauder Horsemen or Wood Elf Wild Riders
- Same stats as Marauder Horsemen. Well balanced, decent unit. Versatile but not too expensive, but not so powerful that they feel overpowered.

Chariots - High Elf Chariots with green stuff, with Chaos Marauders, Bretonnian Men-at-Arms or even Wood Elf Eternal Guard driving works well.
- Well priced, decent cheap chariots designed to work in a unit. With characters who are also designed to be in chariots, these units will act as a solid centre unit for your army. With both Chariots and Cavalry as core, this can give this army a very fast movement.

Hearth Guard - Chaos Marauders or Bretonnian Men-at-Arms with Celtic/Mercia paint themes.
- These make a good hammer unit and work well, but I find they do tend to get left behind if using largely cavalry and chariots for core.

Swordmaidens - Wood Elf Eternal Guard perhaps.
- These make for another good hammer unit but as with the Hearth Guard only work well on a largely infantry army.

Druid Neophytes - Wood Elf Wardancers maybe but I'm not sure...
- These guys can be useful but again, they lack the speed to keep up with the main army. This army works well with speed.

Pixies - Heavily converted Dark Eldar Razorwings is the best I could come up with other than scratch building.
- These are nice and work well with the theme, as fliers they can keep up with the army, they're a cheap unit to worry the opponant and they can hit ethereal enemies.

Fenbeasts - The Storm Of Magic Fenbeast model isn't bad, but Crypt Horror conversions also work well.
- These are extremely powerful and useful, although somewhat slow monstrous infantry. I like them, they fit the aesthetic well, but they're probably not worth the points if I'm honest. Still they work well and when they are used properly they can be invaluable.

Sidhe - I like the LotR Mordor ringwraith special characters for these, they just work.
- I love these guys, so atmospheric and the reason for wanting to hold back and include more infantry. Ethereal, fear causing, and unbreakable these are useful in many situations. I want an excuse just to use these guys.

Stone Thrower - Mordor Stone Thrower and Marauder/Men-at-Arms/Eternal Guard as crew.
- It's a stone thrower, pretty standard, decent for the points.

Mastadon - War Mumak Of Harad from LotR, Ogre Kingdoms Stonehorn, or Lizardmen Stegadon with much green stuff and crew as above.
- Seems out of place for this army, but it works quite well. I'd rather spend my points on something else though.

Giant - NEXT (Giants bore me).

Well, that's the Albion army. Not quite as refined as the Norse army (and I've only tested it a few times), but interesting and fun to play with, giving plenty of options and far more freedom than the Norse but not quite as competitive I feel with some things a little overpowered and others feeling less useful than they should be. Still this gives us a good reason to mix and match models. Wood Elves, Chaos, Empire and Bretonnian models all together can make a great army, alternatively there's loads of options in the Lord Of The Rings models that could help set this army apart.

The next armies I intend to look into are Araby and The Fimir, will give my opinions on them soon. What does everyone else think? Have you played with these armies? Do you like or follow the fan-army project? Do you disagree with any of what I've said about the above armies or have any different opinions on what models work well for them? I'd love to hear more and I think this could make for a very interesting discussion.

[Hashut-Up!]

While I am a supporter of fan-made books, there are a few hurdles to overcome concerning them. First would be to get people to play against them. A lot of people have problems playing against the "unofficial but official" forgeworld chaos dwarf list in Tamurkhan, so I can only imagine what their reaction would be if you asked to play with a fan-made book. Sounds like you do have people who are willing to play against these armies, and that's great!

The second problem, which is my biggest beef with these books, is balance. I've only had brief glances over them, but some of the units (particularly in the rare slot) seem very, very strong for their points value. For example, the Fimir book has the daemonomaniac which has an absolutely great statline and few weaknesses (low armour and unstable, but great weaponskill and initiative and a built in 5+ ward to make up for that) and costs 250 pts? That is too cheap in my books. The other rares in the Fimir book follow the same path as well (especially the eye oculus). While they are great ideas, and add character to the army, I have no idea how the points costs were determined as it seems they are just slapped on there by a fan of the fluff too make them very, very good. The core units, army wide rules, and even most special units seem right on par, but the rares are almost always undercosted/overpowered for that price. The same goes for magic items (a great weapon that multiplies each hit into d3 for 55 points! Really??).

These army books just don't seem to really fit that well into 8th edition. That being said, I have no idea when these books were put out so my point may be moot. It's just that all of the 8th edition books seem to fit very well as a whole, with none of them being over/under powered. This could be due to the collective of writers GW has working together and pursuing the same design path with each and every new book. Sure some units are better or worse than others, but that's how it will always be. The writers of these fan books are obviously fans of the fluff and history of the races they've done, and with that will come overpowering/undercosting of units of both the intentional and unintentional nature, and lack the resources of the professional writers (and I would have to say fellow gamers and their opinions don't really count as they will follow along the same lines as the original fan-book author). This is by no means meant to be bashing these fan-books, I think they're a great idea especially for playgroups that want more variety, it's just something I have noticed.

As for your write-up, I think it's an interesting project. It will definitely attract attention to these interesting fan-books and I for one will pay attention to them. I may have totally misjudged them and look forward to learning more about them. On top of this, the modeling aspect of your breakdowns is thoughtful and could encourage people to take up these armies as fun side projects, so kudos!

[gauly_13]

I tend to agree with the above post. But I also think armies such as these have a greater scope than just 1v1 pitched battles. Imagine a budding gm who set up a campaign for you and all your mates to invade Albion, or asked you to defend your lands against raiding Norsemen? I think any fan made project truly shines when the competitive side of warhammer takes a back seat to the narrative side

[Ultimate Life Form]

Well of course they're overpowered. They always are. One must be crazy to the point of being obsessed to go through the chore of creating an army from scratch. These fans are necessarily very enthusiastic about the army and their project. Ergo they want them to be strong. However they are usually prone to overshooting the target by quite a margin. Rarely have I seen a fan-made list that wasn't grossly overpowered. That's why I won't play, sorry. It's like showing a child your love by feeding it chocolate. A bit won't hurt, but ultimately you're killing what you love.

If you're serious about this, playtesting is your friend. And anther hint: coolness beats raw power any day. In a positive sense.

[TornadoCreator]

Well of course they're overpowered. They always are. One must be crazy to the point of being obsessed to go through the chore of creating an army from scratch. These fans are necessarily very enthusiastic about the army and their project. Ergo they want them to be strong. However they are usually prone to overshooting the target by quite a margin. Rarely have I seen a fan-made list that wasn't grossly overpowered. That's why I won't play, sorry. It's like showing a child your love by feeding it chocolate. A bit won't hurt, but ultimately you're killing what you love.

If you're serious about this, playtesting is your friend. And anther hint: coolness beats raw power any day. In a positive sense.

I agree entirely, fan projects usually are overpowered, but that's why we play-test and I've been play testing a fair few. I'll agree both list are overpowered.

With the Norse the War Mammoth is far too cheap. I'd be more leaning towards the 350-400 points mark where as they put it at only 275 points. Compared to the Chaos War Mammoth in Tamurkhan it's a fair bit weaker, but that one costs 600 points (including the Howdah), for the same price the Norse can have two of their War Mammoths with change left over. Far too cheap. Some people I've play tested with have claimed that the Frost Giant is overpowered, it's really not, it's about right. Look at similar creatures, most notably the Ghorgon for the Beastmen and you'll see it's actually quite fair. The Ulfwerenar are especially useful and powerful, perhaps overpowered, I'd maybe increase them a little. They're currently at 17 points per model, you could probably justify that going up by a couple of points, maybe even as high as 20 points per model without it feeling too much. Other than that though the list seems really very balanced.

With the Albion army there's much more of an issue with balance. The Woad Raiders are sickeningly overpowered especially in small numbers. Only 6 points for a model with frenzy, swiftstride, devastating charge, WS4, 6+ Ward, and the option of an additional hand weapon for +2 points... are you joking! They should be starting at around the 9 points mark possibly higher. This unit makes me hate the Albion list because it's clearly been written by a Scottish or Irish Nationalist (or Fanboy whichever), who loves the film Braveheart too much. Sorry but highlander warriors in woad are not supposed to be superman, but if you insist on making them into supermen at least price them up at a reasonable level. If I'm honest the entire "core" of the Albion list on retrospect is overpowered and could do with a little higher. Warbands should be at about 6 points each not 4. Woad Raiders should be, I'd say about 10 points each not 6, and currently they're broken. Skirmishers should probably be about 5 or 6 points each not 4. Hunting Dogs themselves are OK, but the Hunters should be about 5 points each, not the frankly ridiculously low 3 points each. The Clansman Cavalry is actually perfectly fine as are the Chariots. The infantry in the special choices are all about 2 points too cheap I'd say, even the ones that seem to lack use for the armies main core composition. The Mastadon, one of the rare choices, is probably a solid 50 points under-priced. In short the Albion book could do with major rebalancing, but it's not as far out as some people would claim.

From what I've seen the worst offenders are the Cathay and Nippon books which I've not had a chance to play test yet. They are way overpowered so much so in fact that it feels like they've just let the internet's collective Weeaboo population write them at times. Often things clearly Japanese appear in the Cathay book and things clearly Chinese appear in the Nippon book, and that's before you consider that the nations are shallow representations of the real-world countries so much so that Bretonnia and Estalia seem subtle by comparison.

I'm in no way saying that the fan-made books are without fault or flaws, they're certainly not even close to perfect, but at least someone out there is trying which is more than can be said for GW who've not even come close to releasing anything for Far Cathay, Nippon, The Kingdom Of Ind or the Eastern Steepes. There's a lot of stuff out there GW could be focusing on and are not, they'd rather re-release and change the current armies over and over (I mean seriously another Warriors of Chaos book is coming out while Wood Elves and Bretonnians haven't seen an update in years, and Cathay, Ind etc. have never even had a supplement at all). I support fan projects like this because it's at least something for the community to focus on at least, and hopefully some professional writers, playtesters etc. can come in and edit it all down, remove the fanboyism from the books and make it somewhat professional-esq. In the meantime, it's something different to try and it gives painters and modellers a new theme and challenge at least. Those are my takes anyway.

[Ultimate Life Form]

Well, GW is a bit of a burnt child from their experiences with Dogs of War and Chaos Dawrves (and to a degree also specialist games). I don't know what exactly went wrong with those, but it is obvious GW are trying to focus on the core of the Warhammer world at the moment neglecting the fringes. Supporting an entire army with complete model range and all is no laughing matter and represents a considerable investment and they're simply not going to take the risk at the moment. Creating a niche army for every single spot in the world that has ever been mentioned is neither wise nor promising. And why would they? Actually we're benefiting quite a bit; just think of the insane amount of stunning models they're releasing lately, finally bringing the armies up to a certain standard. That wouldn't be possible if they would concentrate their powers on half a dozen new armies instead that no one wants anyway (how many human factions can a single game support? How will you make the Kurgan different enough from the Hung to warrant two different armies that pretty much vie for the same niche as the already existing WoC?).

As for the community: Yes indeed, great things could be achieved if we combined our powers. It has been proven numerous times in the past that WarSeer was able to spot glaring balance issues and unclear ruleswriting in new books within a matter of hours after release that the GW team apparently overlooked during several months of development time. And don't even get me started on the omnipresent typos and grammar mistakes. It's the combined manpower of the web and the unbiased view of the outsider that was not wrapped up in the mind-clouding development process that makes this possible. There are several hundred people that know a great deal about the game and what makes it work and who would be more than willing to assist GW with proofreading, playtesting and rules tweaking. For free! Sadly GW prefers working behind closed doors in an ivory tower. Or maybe rather a Chaos fortress. The product could be better than what we get if GW wouldn't guard their secrets better than the vatican. If we would unite we could make our own game that would be far better and wouldn't need a complete rules overhaul every few years. There would be only one edition. The final and ultimate edition. We could finally shake off GW's shackles and free our hobby from their clutches. But sadly the divided nature of the player base makes this impossible.

[Yamabushi]

I've played about ten games or so with the Cathay book, and overpowered is hardly what I will use to describe it.

The army has a chronic lack of attacks above S5 other than characters and the sole cannon choice. You can mass S4 attacks, but its not easy to actually hit anything with crappy WS2 Imperial Infantry, or lowly armored special choices. The Yin Yang spells, while interesting, force you to alternate cast or suffer a miscast. That already makes your magic phase somewhat predictable by your opponent. The strategems are taken on a character who has no mount options, can't take any magic items, and have a range of 12".

Lost all my games so far, against Chaos Warriors and Ogres especially, my losses are extremely horrible (no way to consistently overcome heavy armor in the former, and finding problems to wound T4 and above opponents in the latter). But man, it is fun! 100 man flying infantry block, psychological warfare with the strategems, and other funky tricks like flash bombs and what not. I may lose, but me and my opponent were laughing all the way.

[BigbyWolf]

I've been spending the last few years working off and on on my own Estalia book and can confirm that one of the biggest problems is the play-testing, and the fact that every fan-dex seems to have a lot of fanboism (meaning the army is usually packed to the gills with the supa-doopa must-have units that the writer has always dreamed of). One thing you have to come up with is a good selection of over-costed tripe to balance out your OTT things, which is very hard to do when it's your own project.

Playtesting is a big issue due to the fact that in order to get a good view of it, you have to compile a lot of different lists, then play those lists against as many different lists as possible. That in itself is a very time consuming process.

[Snake1311]

I had a little skim through the Norse book, and whilst it made a decent first impression, it highlighted two of the major issues I have with fan-made books:

- There are balance issues. It is obvious an effort has been made to keep this in line, but there are some things that are coming through the crask even at first glance. The Ice Drake is way too cheap, but its really the more subtle units that are likely to turn out to be broken. Giant Wolves are frikking amazing for example, a chaos warhound with +2 movement and vanguard for 1 extra point? I won't dwell on this, because everyone knows its true.

- There are WAY too many special rules. Fan-written books tend to have this, as the authors want to make their army special, but many of those rules just cluster up the game. I got to give the guy credit for keeping the core basic, but he has gone overboard in other areas. E.g. do snow trolls really need to have razor sharp claws? They don't have to have a unique rule that helps them against armour, which is what the troll vomit does (which they've lost). This was a good opportunity to just lift a unit out of the O&G book and use as is. Skalds and Seers both having separate buff charts is also excessive to remember (and I suspect pretty broken when combined with the core army special rules). I know some armies like Skaven or Empire have a ton of special rules and charts, but thats not necesarily good army design. There are quite a few similar examples through the book.


On a side note, I feel some opportunities were missed with berzerkergang. It should give frenzy, not just frenzy for one turn. Yes, it could be potentially stronger, but it also makes the army unwieldier if you aren't careful, and adds some tactical depth to an otherwise (as it has been said) a very blocky army. I don't really see why there is no core unit with Flails and Maces (or why they aren't vailable for 'rauders) as they work extremely well with counter-charge.

[TornadoCreator]

I've played about ten games or so with the Cathay book, and overpowered is hardly what I will use to describe it.

The army has a chronic lack of attacks above S5 other than characters and the sole cannon choice. You can mass S4 attacks, but its not easy to actually hit anything with crappy WS2 Imperial Infantry, or lowly armored special choices. The Yin Yang spells, while interesting, force you to alternate cast or suffer a miscast. That already makes your magic phase somewhat predictable by your opponent. The strategems are taken on a character who has no mount options, can't take any magic items, and have a range of 12".

Lost all my games so far, against Chaos Warriors and Ogres especially, my losses are extremely horrible (no way to consistently overcome heavy armor in the former, and finding problems to wound T4 and above opponents in the latter). But man, it is fun! 100 man flying infantry block, psychological warfare with the strategems, and other funky tricks like flash bombs and what not. I may lose, but me and my opponent were laughing all the way.

Fair enough, by reading the book alone it seemed REALLY overpowered but I've not actually played it so when I do I'll look out for the same issues and see if I agree, could be a while though.