The death of Ulthwe.

[Inquisitor Engel]

SPOILERS BELOW. Not breaking up paragraphs by doing spoiler line-breaks every 2 lines so if you HAVEN'T read "Void Stalker" (and you really should have, it's awesome) don't read.

That's the thing though, the Eldar already tried to stop the prophecy. Of course, that's just attempt one, but given the fact that they apparently sent all available troops, as well as a freaking

Phoenix Lord

, it should be some indication that the Eldar are taking this threat very, very seriously. Even if it comes fairly far down the line, the Eldar are absolutely terrified of what the Night Lords are going to do. You don't bring out what they did for every two-bit warband that might potentially raid the Craftworld some day if the stars align exactly right in 500 years time.

You're assuming Talos wasn't in fact the Prophet who would have led the Night Lords to destroy Ulthwé. It's entirely possible that Decimus doesn't have the drive and hatred for the Eldar that Talos might have, or simply lack the experience to persecute the war effectively. There's a number of threads that point to Talos' death actually saving Ulthwé and not damning it as is otherwise implied.

[OgreBattle]

Does it ever get confusing for Talos that his name is also the name of a popular Eldar war/torture machine?

Let's also not forget that the last time a really big craftworld got 'killed' by the eye of terror's forces, it just popped back out within a few millenia.
Altansar. Everyone saw it 'die'. It came back. So not only are prophecies not always accurate (otherwise guide would be "target unit hits"), the 'death of a craftworld' is a condition that Eldar have reversed in their fluff.

[Lord-Caerolion]

Funny thing is that Dark Eldar Kabals so far never had given me the same weight and impression like the Craftworlds. Ofc the latter ones are known since 2nd Edition and even had their own Codex in 3rd. Same like Ork-clans which seem to have kinda washed out since 2nd massively.


@Lord-Caerolion: Where is that "try to stop" described? In "Void Stalker"?

Indeed it is. The part where Ulthwe sends as much of their fleet as they can, backed up by a sizeable force of infantry, Howling Banshees and, of course, the Void Stalker herself. To me, that isn't an every-day outing for the Eldar military. It's a significant investment of forces by Ulthwe, backed up by a Phoenix Lord. I can't imagine the Phoenix Lords turning up for little small-scale battles, despite what the table-top games would have us believe.

Regarding Talos/Decimus, I just can't see Decimus not being the Prophet spoken of in the prophecy. Unlike Talos, he can actually unify the Legion, from what we've seen, and isn't so clouded by idealism as Talos was. I haven't seen those threads you speak of either, they sound pretty interesting though.

[Israfael]

Let's also not forget that the last time a really big craftworld got 'killed' by the eye of terror's forces, it just popped back out within a few millenia.
Altansar. Everyone saw it 'die'. It came back. So not only are prophecies not always accurate (otherwise guide would be "target unit hits"), the 'death of a craftworld' is a condition that Eldar have reversed in their fluff.

This "death" is slightly different, however. This is an invasion, so this is more akin to the Tyranids against Ilyanden. Or the recent Path novels, where Alaitoc is besieged. The Seers' of Ulthwe had a vision of a prophet uniting the Night Lords in a full-out, Legion scale assault, of the Craftworld. The resulting battle is so brutal, that even though it is eventually thwarted, (with what I can only assume is the aid of other Craftworlds, and corsairs) it leaves the Craftworld whittled down to a population where they are all but wiped-out, and are thus unable to continue their role as guardians of the Eye.

The Night Lords goal is to stop them from being able to aid the Imperial effort of containing Chaos warbands who are emerging from the Eye.

[Hendarion]

This "death" is slightly different, however. This is an invasion, so this is more akin to the Tyranids against Ilyanden.

Wait, wait. A 10.000-man-strong legion attacking a Craftworld with a multiple million citizens inside is an invasion like the Tyranids invaded Iyanden? The same Tyranids who had been billions of ugly bugs and monsters and which still got fought off from it?

[Scalebug]

We don't know the numbers of the tyranid invasion of Iyanden. Enough to near kill them but be driven off at the dramatically correct point. Like Tyranid invasions sometimes are, even if they are swamping a bigger target than a Craftworld. At the same time, Chaos Space Marines occasionally burn such bigger targets, like planets, as well.

Don't let your Eldar fanboi'ism cloud your judgement.

[Hendarion]

Hehe. I didn't say it is no threat, because then the vision would have shown that. But comparing 10.000 Space Marines to a Tyranid swarm sounds kinda out of scale. We know the Tyranids outnumbered the Eldar by far, the Eldar outnumber the Nightlords by far though. On the other hand, a 1.000 Marine strong chapter like the Ultramarines was heroic enough to fend off a Tyranid swarm from their homeworld too... Weird fluff is weird.

[althathir]

Warning: This thread contains spoilers regarding the Black Library novel - Void Stalker.

Still here? Good. Now then, I was curious what others thought regarding the "visions" of the death of Ulthwe coming to pass- via the united Night Lords Legion making war upon them. Now, is this just a cool, dramatic ending for the novel? Or could this be advancing fluff at work; something that we'll see taking place in the upcoming editions fluff? Some of the authors of various Black Library works have sneak-peeks at upcoming codex toys, units, or fluff shifts; such as the Firedrake novels.

So my question to the community: Do you think that the damned Eldar of Ulthwe are truly damned? Will we see the end of this Craftworld in the upcoming Chaos codices fluff?

The fluff doesn't advance past a certain point in the core products (army books & rulebooks) so I think its intended to be a dramatic ending. It wouldn't shock me if ADB does a sequal with decimus, but I doubt it would go past the end of 13th black crusade (so probably be about trying to unify the night lords... which can't be easy) granted there is a enough Avatar destruction in the fluff that Ulthwe may be doomed, its not like being dead stopped Eldrad from being one of the most popular SCs in 40k (i'm half kidding there).

Palvinore is correct. Prophecy is tricksy and false even for the eldar who are the masters of it.

Yeah and an it seems like Prophecies tend to work out quite abit different then expected for the most part (mainly if anyone besides Eldrad has them)

Wait, wait. A 10.000-man-strong legion attacking a Craftworld with a multiple million citizens inside is an invasion like the Tyranids invaded Iyanden? The same Tyranids who had been billions of ugly bugs and monsters and which still got fought off from it?

The night lords would have auxilaries, and probably some other chaos allies (wouldn't take much to recruit someone who follows Slaanesh to go after eldar)

[stormblade]

Hehe. I didn't say it is no threat, because then the vision would have shown that. But comparing 10.000 Space Marines to a Tyranid swarm sounds kinda out of scale. We know the Tyranids outnumbered the Eldar by far, the Eldar outnumber the Nightlords by far though. On the other hand, a 1.000 Marine strong chapter like the Ultramarines was heroic enough to fend off a Tyranid swarm from their homeworld too... Weird fluff is weird.

I thought the UM had their Ultramar auxilla with them and many fleet and other assets.

[althathir]

I thought the UM had their Ultramar auxilla with them and many fleet and other assets.

Your thinking of when the ultramarines attacked the night lords. Which is one of my favorite exchanges in that series, mainly because I like the theme that other marines still see successors as part of their parent chapter anyways (so for all intents and purposes the ultramarines are still a legion).

[Inquisitor Engel]

The fluff doesn't advance past a certain point in the core products (army books & rulebooks) so I think its intended to be a dramatic ending. It wouldn't shock me if ADB does a sequal with decimus, but I doubt it would go past the end of 13th black crusade (so probably be about trying to unify the night lords... which can't be easy) granted there is a enough Avatar destruction in the fluff that Ulthwe may be doomed, its not like being dead stopped Eldrad from being one of the most popular SCs in 40k (i'm half kidding there).

True, it's certainly the intent that the Eldar created their own worst enemy by killing Talos. It works better in the literary sense, but since the 'background' isn't necessarily always the authors intent, it's also possible the Decimus' lack of experience will actually make the Eighth weaker in the evental attack on Ulthwé. I was merely putting it out there as a possibility.

Does it ever get confusing for Talos that his name is also the name of a popular Eldar war/torture machine?.

If you listen to the audiobooks, no. Talos as in the Night Lord is pronounced "Tay-loss" and I've always heard the DE pain engine referred to (even by developers) as "Tah-los." Could just be the Nostraman accent though.

[Poseidal]

Does it ever get confusing for Talos that his name is also the name of a popular Eldar war/torture machine?

Next codex entry:

"The Dark Eldar Talos, named after the first individual subjected to the device is..."

[agurus1]

So that means that Talos the CSM loses and is introduced to a Pain Engine?

[Scalebug]

Talos was a guardian robot (ok, so maybe a giant made of bronze with molten lead for blood, but robot would have been cooler...) in greek mythology...

[Poseidal]

Talos was a guardian robot (ok, so maybe a giant made of bronze with molten lead for blood, but robot would have been cooler...) in greek mythology...

Goes back to when GW actually named things after real things or with real words, rather than 'Tyrannofex'.

[TheDungen]

its funny cause the eldar got out of the EoT campaign with rescuing one craftworld from the eye and colonizing several planets within the eye, they pushed chaos back and was the only good race that actualtl did good, and in the end they lost eldrad and ow all that is forgotten and gw is threatening to wipe out the craftworld that did so well =(

[Drasanil]

its funny cause the eldar got out of the EoT campaign with rescuing one craftworld from the eye and colonizing several planets within the eye, they pushed chaos back and was the only good race that actualtl did good, and in the end they lost eldrad and ow all that is forgotten and gw is threatening to wipe out the craftworld that did so well =(

>Insert generic comment about GW and things not Spehss Mahreens<

[Israfael]

Wait, wait. A 10.000-man-strong legion attacking a Craftworld with a multiple million citizens inside is an invasion like the Tyranids invaded Iyanden? The same Tyranids who had been billions of ugly bugs and monsters and which still got fought off from it?

The actual size of the invading force is irrelevant for the point I was making. My point, was that the comparison was off. This isn't a Craftworld vanishing in the Eye, and being thought destroyed. The vision that the Eldar foresee, has the Night Lords - united at Legion strength again - invading the Craftworld, and destroying the population to a point from which they never recover.

That being cleared up, I would consider a Legion invasion - with daemonic allies, at that - a far greater threat to a Craftworld, than an "unknown" sized hive fleet. That might just be me though. Especially given how Ulthwe was described in Void Stalker.

[OgreBattle]

aren't the night lords the guys who got brutalized by farmers lead by one ultramarine?

[Israfael]

aren't the night lords the guys who got brutalized by farmers lead by one ultramarine?

The source for this would be..?