Scouts, +1 for first turn?

[gorblud]

Hey, some time ago I read a thread about scouts being "set up" and not deployed, so if someone sets up scouts they still get +1 on their roll for first turn if the rest of the army was deployed before the opponents.

I just thought okay, why not I guess, and didn't follow the thread for other arguments. But now, having looked into it a bit more I find that argument to be wrong. I'm making this thread here as I don't remember on which forum I read the thread.

SCOUTS page 70 big book.
'Scouts are set up after all other non-Scout units from both armies have been deployed.'

Then it goes on to describe how a scout may be "set up". After that has been described it says:

'if deployed in this second way'

(the second way is when you deploy them anywhere on the table).
So they are still being deployed and should rob the player of +1 for first turn, since they are deployed last, right?


If that isn't enough you can read Deployment on page 142:

ALTERNATING UNITS
'Where a battle calls for you to alternate deployment of units, roll off to see who sets up the first unit,' etc etc..

So if Scouts aren't deployed, then neither is anything else.

I think it's pretty clear that scouts counts as deploying, and they deploy after everything else.


With that out of the way, I have a question:
Scouts are deployed after all non-Scout units from both armies have been deployed, but characters are always deployed last.

So if I have scouts I have to wait for the opponent to deploy all his units, including characters (we assume he doesn't have scouts). When he is finished I can deploy my scouts, and then my characters?

Is there something I have missed, or am I right in my statements?

[Blkc57]

You can read it that way if you wish. However I will warn you that most players left over from 7th will be somewhat opposed to this as the old scouting rule was clearly placed seperate from deployment.Is it now part of deployment? I have no clue, its like reading tea leaves to understand this level of minutia on GW's part. Honestly its such a minor issue for the +1 that I never bother to even care to settle it until after we roll (statistically speaking that +1 only occasionally matters). Having enjoyed the previous deployment aspect of 7th over 8th myself I tend to favor the "let scouts be seperate from the deployment" crowd. I find it kinda stupid though that we have to resort to this level of words lawyering for something that can easily be diced off before a game.

[CreativeNameToStandOut]

I feel like this is the same as arguing the difference between when the rule book says an effect happens when a units is "in" a terrain piece as opposed when the rule book says an effect happens when "on" a terrain piece. "setup" and "deployment" are the same thing unless the rule book specifically makes a point to define a difference. So until an FAQ comes along, it's all deployment/setup.

[Chicago Slim]

Locally, we've agreed to house-interpret that Scouts aren't considered when deciding who gets the +1 to the first-turn roll (nor to count units that Vanguard, which is part of deployment as well). That said, we're happy to play by other people's interpretations, when we visit their houses.

[Akkaryn]

We always play that they do count towards the +1 although I think the only person that uses scouts is me.

[gorblud]

I find it obvious that they are in regular deployment since nothing else is mentioned now. It's just a special form of deployment, but still a deployment. A vanguard move is made after everything has been deployed, and it's just a move and not a deployment, so that wouldn't count towards +1. I don't understand why anyone would keep some 7th edition rules so far into 8th edition.

As you say though, +1 rarely matters, but when it does it can be fatal. I just wanted to know for sure.

How is it usually played in tournaments?

[Akkristor]

I'm of the opinion that the scouts do not count towards the +1, simply because they were "already there" to begin with. The scouts have their unique deployment rules to represent that they had ample time to position themselves exactly where they needed to be.
Where the rules are concerned, I feel the rules in the Deployment section are a general outline of how deploying your army works, without taking into account any special, specific deployment rules, I.E. Ambusher, Scout, and Vanguard, or army-specific versions of those rules. Units with these special rules are not considered by the basic Deployment rules, instead useing their own specific subset of deployment rules. For example, if you and your opponent both have scouts, you roll to determine who places scouts first. This roll is not the same as the roll which decided who placed a unit first.

Also, I believe you and your opponent deploy all Non-scout units, then each place all non-scout characters, then scout-units, then scout characters. Remember, Scouts are set up after all other non-scouts are set up.

[gorblud]

I'm of the opinion that the scouts do not count towards the +1, simply because they were "already there" to begin with. The scouts have their unique deployment rules to represent that they had ample time to position themselves exactly where they needed to be.
Where the rules are concerned, I feel the rules in the Deployment section are a general outline of how deploying your army works, without taking into account any special, specific deployment rules, I.E. Ambusher, Scout, and Vanguard, or army-specific versions of those rules. Units with these special rules are not considered by the basic Deployment rules, instead useing their own specific subset of deployment rules. For example, if you and your opponent both have scouts, you roll to determine who places scouts first. This roll is not the same as the roll which decided who placed a unit first.

I thought about this too, but I couldn't find anything in the rulebook that separates scouts from regular deployment rules besides the obvious: place them almost anywhere you want.

If scouts where there from the beginning they should be deployed first, and the opponent should then have to deploy all his troops before the scouting player deploys his, since the scouts report what they see. This would be too big of an advantage in the game of course.

Also, I believe you and your opponent deploy all Non-scout units, then each place all non-scout characters, then scout-units, then scout characters. Remember, Scouts are set up after all other non-scouts are set up.

This I'm not sure about, characters must be deployed last.This doesn't really make any difference in the game though so it doesn't bother me. Getting +1 for first turn however is much needed against armies with loads of ranged attacks.

[Blkc57]

How is it usually played in tournaments?

There was only one tournament that I have been to that ever ruled that scouts counted for the +1 after deployment. That ruling did not go down well with several of the "old gamers", after some constant arguing with the TO and a few shouting matches it was decided that it wasn't worth the headache and was later dropped. Every single one of the tournaments that I have been to since has ruled it that scouts do not count for the +1 from deployment drops. I equate it to mysterious terrain, something new to 8th and something that I tend to see ignored by many of the older players. The few times I've met some gamers who play with the rule we just deployed first then rolled the deployment dice to see if the +1 would even matter and hilariously it never has factored into who goes first.

[gorblud]

There was only one tournament that I have been to that ever ruled that scouts counted for the +1 after deployment. That ruling did not go down well with several of the "old gamers", after some constant arguing with the TO and a few shouting matches it was decided that it wasn't worth the headache and was later dropped. Every single one of the tournaments that I have been to since has ruled it that scouts do not count for the +1 from deployment drops. I equate it to mysterious terrain, something new to 8th and something that I tend to see ignored by many of the older players. The few times I've met some gamers who play with the rule we just deployed first then rolled the deployment dice to see if the +1 would even matter and hilariously it never has factored into who goes first.

Well I didn't play in 7th edition, and I'd find it really annoying if someone told me that an old, outdated book had different rules and the game should be played by those..

And for some reason when our group plays, the +1 almost always matters, even if it in theory shouldn't.

[Blkc57]

Well they play by those "old, outdated books" because the rule was clearer and better written back in 7th and 6th edition. Made more sense and gave a proper amount of value to scouts because of it. But like I said its something you can so easily work out with your opponent that its not something to dwell on.

[Senor]

I agree with Gorblud
Scouts count towards the +1.
Deployed after Non-scout deployment finished on both sides, when deployed in the second way (anywhere on the table)

If they do not want to have the scout-deployment count for the +1, then they have to deploy it in their deployment zone before characters are deployed.

[gorblud]

I find the rule very clear in this book. There is no reason to compare it to an older version.

You are right that it is easy to work out with my opponent. I just wanted some more opinions before bringing it up with my friends.

[Blkc57]

I find the rule very clear in this book.

Not to push gorblud as I really don't have much of a dog in this fight, but if the rule is so clear in 8th why are you having to spend so much time defending it? Why is there not even a consensus in this thread? You've laid out a good argument for your friends, just house rule it with them in a vote, I'm sure you'll triumph or at least be able to persuade them to dice off for it. Just be prepared to meet people that don't play it that way, for instance where I game no one plays that the scouts count for deployment.

[gorblud]

Yeah I will ask my friends what they think. Really, it isn't a house rule, it's right there in the rulebook. Not counting towards +1 would be a house rule.

The reason others don't find it as clear is probably because they compare it to the old rules. Someone who never played by those rules (I didn't) has nothing to compare it to, which makes the rule very clear.

When I first read the thread I found it odd that they would put emphasis on "set up" instead of "deployed" which was mentioned later in the same text. But at the time I was new to warhammer and basically thought all my opinions were wrong, and I certainly wasn't going to argue with someone who had played the game for several years. Now i know that old timers can be wrong, and even more so when rules are being changed.

[dms505]

As far as fluff goes you could also think about it this way. The army gives away the +1 for using scouts because they send the scouts out to see how the enemy deploys then waits for the information to get back to the army, thus the enemy is already deployed. On a reality note, that information is useless because your also already deployed lol. But at least your scouts get a better position.

Maybe a scouting unit should allow the user to redeploy one unit of less than say 20rank and file models in their own zone. That might be neat for a "special" scout ability or for a scenario.

[logan054]

I never noticed the change tbh lol, I keep finding all these little rules that have changed, I think I must be getting old

[gorblud]

Just because you played 7th edition doesn't mean you're old, 8th was released only 2 years ago. Old timers were really bad choice of words hehe

[logan054]

well I played 4th, 5th and 6th as well its depressing when you go into GW and you look at the kids and think "I've been playing longer than you've been alive"....

[gorblud]

that's not depressing, that's awesome I started playing this year, I'm 20. Wish I had started earlier.