Blood Angel Legion organization in the wake of Fear to Tread.

[nagash66]

Ok so no matter of your opinion of Fear to Tread be it good or bad the book has shed some light on the numbers, organization and workings of the IX legion at the time of the great crusade.

Facts:

i) Legion of approximately 120.000 astartes.
2) Legion divided into 300 companies each with its own captain and hierarchy.

Now this leads to some interesting questions, usually a marine company during the heresy era is given as 1.000 marines, the equivalent of a 40k chapter, however simple math tells us this cannot be the case as if that was the case the legion would be in the 300k+ margins.

Furthermore is the issue of how the apothecarium, legion chaplains ( wardens) and techmarines are structured. Do they exist in their own companies and then seconded to the rest, exist outside the normal legion organizational template or are impeded and exist at a company level. A case can be made for each of the above.

I would like to hear people thoughts on this matter.

Personally i see it as the following, BA companies consist of approximately 500 marines at full strength. techmarines, apothecarys and chaplains (wardens) exist outside of the normal legion organization and are seconded to companies as required.

The 120k mark is of battle-line astartes and does not include the like of scours, chaplains ( wardens), sanguinary guard and so on, very much as the 40k chapter organization functions.

[Sotek]

It has been 10,000 years - lots of marines can die off in that time!
The BA have 10 companies of 100 marines including scouts but not including techmarines, the priests, chaplaincy, honour guards and sanguinary guard. Also death company don't count but they tend to come from the 'line' troops. At full strength I guess they'd have 1100 marines + tonnes of serfs and servitors.

[Stonerhino]

Well its clear that there are 300 captains.

And it appears that Apothicaries and Techmarines are perminately asigned to companies and squads. The only ones who seem outside of the normal chain of command are the Sanguinary Guard and Wardens. When it existed the Librarians were also outside the normal chain of command.

[nagash66]

It has been 10,000 years - lots of marines can die off in that time!
The BA have 10 companies of 100 marines including scouts but not including techmarines, the priests, chaplaincy, honour guards and sanguinary guard. Also death company don't count but they tend to come from the 'line' troops. At full strength I guess they'd have 1100 marines + tonnes of serfs and servitors.

Yeah i am talking about the 30k legion, the chapter was only used as an example to a point.

[Inquisitor Engel]

To pop an additional note on the size of the Legions, John French has said the Imperial Fists were 100,000 Astartes at the time they split into the Terra Defense group and the Retribution fleet (2/3 and 1/3 respectively). It looks like BL has finally started reigning in authors on the size of the Legions.

[sean_scanlon2000]

....or perhaps they are actually making the legions be much much larger then previously stated because they have to be to have actually managed to conquer much of the known universe.....

[Inquisitor Engel]

....or perhaps they are actually making the legions be much much larger then previously stated because they have to be to have actually managed to conquer much of the known universe.....

True, I meant "reigning in" in the sense that they're giving writers guidelines for it.

[Bonzai]

I imagine that the upcoming Horus Heresy books from Forge World will have some definitive information on individual legion sizes. The base line seems to be be around 100,000 strong, with about 10 chapters, each with 10 companies at about a thousand marines each. Below that, we don't have much intel.

So evidently the Blood angels were a little larger, and they ran their companies at a smaller size. Works for me.

[Nazguire]

So at the time of the Siege of Terra, the Imperial Fists were approximately 60-70,000. And if the Blood Angels were around 100,000 after Signus Prime, by the time they hit Terra they could have been well under 100,000. Remains to be seen what the White Scars were like by the time of the Siege of Terra, but I wouldn't imagine them to have been a huge Legion either. No wonder it was pretty much a suicide mission holding the Imperial Palace against close to a million Traitor Marines.

[nagash66]

So at the time of the Siege of Terra, the Imperial Fists were approximately 60-70,000. And if the Blood Angels were around 100,000 after Signus Prime,.

Book states only that over 100.000 survived Signus.

[ryng_sting]

Remains to be seen what the White Scars were like by the time of the Siege of Terra, but I wouldn't imagine them to have been a huge Legion either. No wonder it was pretty much a suicide mission holding the Imperial Palace against close to a million Traitor Marines.

The White Scars were at full strength - they'd received their reinforcements after wrapping stuff up at Chondax. That was why the Alpha Legion were hoping to lure them into helping Russ, keeping them from Terra.

Didn't work.

[Furls]

Clearly in the 30k universe Legions are organised very differently and have different sizes.

The Thousand Sons were the smallest Legion as Ahriman refers to 1000 as a tenth of the Legion in 'A Thousand Sons'.
The Raven Guard as described by Corax as being a smaller legion of having around 80,000 Astartes
Average seems to be be around the 100,000-120,000 mark like the Imperial Fists and the Blood Angels
The biggest Legions are the Word Bearers and the Ultramarines. I think that the Ultra Marines are described as having something like
250,000 marines in Know No Fear

[Col. Tartleton]

Since Legions are based on genetics not a standard size they're not going to be very equal. The Thousand Nuns; Space Wubbies, and the Emperor's Stepkids are all way under strength.

Of course given that the Space Wolves recruit from a single planet due to the Helix, the EC suffered an accident, and the Thousand Sons tended to turn into Spawn there's a good reason for limited parity.

[Stonerhino]

Post Prospero Burns iIrc all Legions have been retconned to be near 100,000 strong. So ignore the small numbers given in some books.

[Larkyn]

The White Scars were at full strength - they'd received their reinforcements after wrapping stuff up at Chondax. That was why the Alpha Legion were hoping to lure them into helping Russ, keeping them from Terra.

Didn't work.

Bold mine. I think you mean, "half of the Alpha Legion". It's a little early to tell, but it seems like half of Alpha's command is "loyal", while the other half is "traitor".

[Buddha777]

Post Prospero Burns iIrc all Legions have been retconned to be near 100,000 strong. So ignore the small numbers given in some books.

This, the average legion was plus or minus around 100k strong. Word Bearers, stated several times to be the second largest legion, are 150k strong. Ultramarines, the largest legion, are 250k strong. This represents the top end of legion size.

On the low end, the Thousand sons are said to be the smallest legion, possibly as small as 10k. Space wolves are also supposed to be a smaller legion though I don't know how much below the 100k mark they are.



As for the seige of Terra traitor numbers, the problem is that traitors took a lot of casualties before they got there, especially the big 4. After the cullings of Istvaan III, the fighting on Istvaan V, losses during the seven years before the siege (calth and prospero are good examples), and the actual landings themselves (where terra's defenses supposedly reaped a heavy toll), the traitor legions would be much more diminished than the full strength loyalist legions. However, the great equalizers of course are the innumerable demons, cultists, and ad-mech that the traitors were able to bring to bear, all at the one focal point that is terra. The 3 defending legions would have been outmatched if solely in firepower manyfold.

[MajorWesJanson]

Bold mine. I think you mean, "half of the Alpha Legion". It's a little early to tell, but it seems like half of Alpha's command is "loyal", while the other half is "traitor".

Interestingly, in FTT the Dark Angels and Alpha Legion are compared to one another, both being seen as secretive. It is looking like the two Legions are being set up as dark mirrors of one another. Legion I and Legion XX. Both secretive. Both are subject to influence by unknown or Xenos groups- the Watchers in the Dark and the Cabal. Both seem to be going the route of near civil war- with much of the Dark Angels turning traitor and the Alpha Legion seeming to split into pro-and anti-Horus factions.

[Lord Zarkov]

In the bit where entire company is wiped out by Ka'Banda it says that that company was 500 marines. If that is standard for all 300 companies in the Blood Angels that would give 150,000 marines - reasonably close to the 120,000 nagash66 points out.

Take into account combat casualties reducing the numbers, plus the garrison force left on Baal (which must be a subset of one or more companies as all 300 are present in the fleet) and that will bring us to the 120,000 required.

[Sqallum]

The BA companies were 400 Strong.

[nagash66]

The BA companies were 400 Strong.

Care to elaborate at how you decided upon that number?