Wizard and Engineer right of passage...

[Durpp]

Hello,
I was curious, are there any specific rights of passage or traditions tied to either engineer or wizards for a right of passage?

Does a master engineer have to create a spectacular design? Or pass a test of some sorts before he is considered a "master"?

Does a wizard have to complete some form of magical duel or pass any sort of trial to become known as a bona-fide "battle wizard"?

Any information would be more than valuable, Thanks guys!

[Arnizipal]

Ok, this a weird question

Engineers go to an engineering school. Of course they have to make some effort to graduate.
Same for wizards. The Colleges of Magic are schools after all.

[Durpp]

Yeah, but does anyone know what they have to complete specifically?

[stormblade]

They both have to manage to not blow themselves up or something?

[Arnizipal]

I suggest getting a hold of Realms of Sorcery for Warhammer Roleplay second edition for the Wizard specifics.

[Durpp]

Sweet, thankee.
Do you know of any supplements I can find stuff on Engineers?

[Lord Squidar]

Maybe its like the engineering students in my town, they are lowered in a cage into rapids that are near to freezing cold and kept there for a bit. I am sure there are all sorts of traditions like this, maybe even more outlandish ones since its a fantasy setting. I am sure Teclis would have done something to make sure only the most stable wizards survive until graduation.

[cosy]

Ok, this a weird question

Engineers go to an engineering school. Of course they have to make some effort to graduate.
Same for wizards. The Colleges of Magic are schools after all.

Why is it a weird question?
I know Dark Elve Sorceresses have to pass some tests but i don't know them by heart, there are some examples in the army book.
I would love to know the answer but i don't think they have made some fluff about it.

[Athelassan]

Well, if one of the more stupid passages of background is to be believed, only one person in every million is fit to be a battle wizard, and assuming they manage to round all the candidates up they won't want to jeopardise the future of the Empire by failing them in their final exam. Leaving aside hokey mathematics, Realms of Sorcery gives a few details. There are two stages of "apprenticeship" - in the first stage, the apprentices are used as servants by the college and are expected to attend on a magister while trying to pick up the basics of magical lore. If and when they manage to distinguish themselves with competence, they become "senior apprentices" who are usually on closer terms with their mentor (he bothers to learn their name, for instance) and are allowed to travel at the discretion of their master (usually supervised).

When an apprentice has shown some aptitude in the relevant lore and can cast basic spells, he'll be sent off as a journeyman for a period of years during which he's not permitted to return to the College or visit his master. Only those whom the master trusts will be released to the journeyman stage, since any transgressions of the journeyman will reflect badly on him. However, there is no official assessment and the point at which to release an apprentice as a journeyman is entirely at the discretion of the master.

When the journeyman period is over, the master will assess the journeyman in a manner similar to a viva, and if he thinks he's ready the journeyman will apply for re-admission to the College for final training. This is costly and the College will apply discretionary fees depending on how they favour the applicant. If the magister doesn't think he's ready or he can't afford the fees, he'll have to go back out travelling either to earn more money or to improve his abilities.

The final training lasts as long as the applicant desires, in which he stays in a bunk at the College and studies the lore extensively. Once complete, the magisters of the College test him extensively on all aspects of magical lore, ending with a (non-fatal) magical duel between the applicant and a senior magister. He doesn't have to win this duel but is expected to apply himself fully and display great skill. If he is deemed to measure up to the required standard he will be initiated as a magister of the College; if not he is expected to return to his studies until he is ready to re-apply.

I know of no particular source on engineers, I'm afraid.

[Arnizipal]

Why is it a weird question?

Because the answer is so obvious.
It's like asking if a civil engineer that's overseeing the construction of a bridge ever had to pass a final exam to get where he is.

[stormblade]

Depending on which country he is living in the answer could very well be no.

[Sheena Easton]

I don't recall any instances referring to young trainee wizards / engineers sticking vegetables up each others bottoms or drinking donkey droppings or similar hi-jinks and jolly japes

[Durpp]

Because the answer is so obvious.
It's like asking if a civil engineer that's overseeing the construction of a bridge ever had to pass a final exam to get where he is.

Well when was the last time you talked with a Wizard?
...
I personally have never talked with one about what (if any) rites of passage they had to accomplish to get where they are today. As for engineers, I'm sure the folks who worked with war machines had to accomplish something more than a written test. Probably some form of field testing I would imagine (similar-ish, to what was said about the journeyman wizard). But I don't know for sure in the case of warhammer, so I wanted to find out for sure.
So, the answer isn't so obvious to me, and probably to a few other people as well.

Also, thank you guys for the info on wizards this has been amazingly useful!

[Corvussanctus]

Theres a nice piece of history from the University of Tübingen where i studied.
To get your doctorate in the late medieval ages you had to have a discussion with an other graduate on a certain point of knowlegde whilst the professors were watching. If you accquited yourself well in the discussion and showed the knowlegde deemed necessary you graduated. And then it got expensive.
You had to pay for a feast for the whole faculty and every professor, man-servant and employee of the faculty had a right to a certain specific gift. The cartaker for example was entitled to one pair of deer-skin gloves. (That shows who rare it was to become a doctorate today the caretake would swim in gloves)
I can imagine a similar process in becoming a magister of the magic arts. You have to show great skill and knowledge before you masters and have quite a lot of money. Welcome to the class-society of the medieval ages.

[Lord Squidar]

At my university (helsinki) they give you a sword when you get a doctorate, so you can literally defend it. I dont think its particularly big or sharp, but its still cool! =) To get there, you have to publically defend your thesis (with words not blades), so maybe something along those lines.

[blackcherry]

At my university (helsinki) they give you a sword when you get a doctorate, so you can literally defend it. I dont think its particularly big or sharp, but its still cool! =) To get there, you have to publically defend your thesis (with words not blades), so maybe something along those lines.

Your uni sounds like both an intetesting and very dangerous place to be. You crazy Europeans

On topic: I believe a similar sort of initiation is expected of engineers as to wizards only the school prefers to keep its engineers close to hand in case of accidents. The school of engineering in the empire reminds me a lot of the guild of alchamists in the diskworld books.

[RunepriestRidcully]

At my university (helsinki) they give you a sword when you get a doctorate, so you can literally defend it. I dont think its particularly big or sharp, but its still cool! =) To get there, you have to publically defend your thesis (with words not blades), so maybe something along those lines.

hhmmm perhaps I should think of Helsinki for my Doctorate, what's there Archaeology department like? :P Mind you a trowel is good for defending your thesis, and your site too :P.
And for defeating all the ancient villains/Eldritch abbomination/monsters that we unleash in our excavations as well :P

[TheDungen]

I'd say engineers graduate very much like real life late medieval engineers. A masterpiece that they present to the teachers and have to defend. The master price could be a written text on a subject or some experiment i guess.

of course the imperial school of engineering is a lot less interested in knowledge for knowledges sake than their real life counterparts.

[Quinzy]

Because the answer is so obvious.
It's like asking if a civil engineer that's overseeing the construction of a bridge ever had to pass a final exam to get where he is.

A final exam and a rite of passage are distinct.
A final exam is probably mandatory, of course, but a rite of passage could be some sort of ceremony, or duel, or something like that.