detention for not knowing the primarchs

[Smooth Boy]

I could not find anything relating to this while searching the forums... which suprised me, but basically how much does the average imperial citizen know about the universe around them? William Kings SW novels say things like space marines are still feared on Terra because of the HH (which I think makes next to no sense a) it was 10,000 years ago and b) don't the imperial fists recruit from there?) while the Ciaphas Cain novels say things like they had to know each Primarchs name in school. I don't know, makes little sense to me, can anyone comment on it?

[Col. von Dryden]

As with all things...it varies world/system to system. Historically it has been very little does the "average" citizen know. Of course, Cain (and commissars/commanders/inquisitors/ect...) and the inhabitants of Terra are far from "average" in 40k...

[MajorWesJanson]

I could not find anything relating to this while searching the forums... which suprised me, but basically how much does the average imperial citizen know about the universe around them? William Kings SW novels say things like space marines are still feared on Terra because of the HH (which I think makes next to no sense a) it was 10,000 years ago and b) don't the imperial fists recruit from there?) while the Ciaphas Cain novels say things like they had to know each Primarchs name in school. I don't know, makes little sense to me, can anyone comment on it?

Well, Cain was at the Schola Progenium, essentially a military school where many Imperial institutions like the Commissariat, Sisters of Battle, and Administratum recruit from. They are going to learn a lot more than Joe factory worker to begin with.

As for Space Marines, on many worlds they are legends or myths, while others have regular contact with Astartes, like the Ultramar region. Terra, having been site of the end of the Horus Heresy, makes sense to be wary of Astartes. Many details of the Heresy are covered up, like the fall of half the Astartes, but on Terra that is a part of collective memory and not easily suppressed.

Imperial Fists used to have a fortress monastary on Terra, but IIRC, the Iron Warriors destroyed it, and the Fists now make the Phalanx their home.

[Scribe of Khorne]

How much does your average human on Earth today know about the Pharaohs? Or the history of China?

No, unless your on a recruitment world, were recently destroyed/liberated, or have an inside track, I bet you, as Citizen Bob in the 40K world, know next to nothing. 10 THOUSAND years from the Great Crusade and the Heresy? The scale is just immense to try and think about.

[OgreBattle]

How much does your average human on Earth know about the history of China?

ONE out of every FIVE humans on this planet knows in detail the history of China from the legendary dynasties to the fall and highlights of various famous Emperors and Generals.

The way that Chinese treat ancient history as common knowledge and pop culture material would be a good basis for how you'd do so in the Imperium.

[AndrewGPaul]

The Primarchs are minor saints in the Imperial canon; not necessarily known by everyone, but if the general populace have heard of them, it'll be in that context. Similarly, the Horus Heresy is essentially the Fall of Lucifer, and is recognised in the same way.

Abraham, David, Solomon, Herod, Peter and Paul were all real people (I think), but most people will think of them as religious or mythical figures, because there's so little actual historical evidence remaining that it's swamped by the stories. Same goes for the history and characters of the Great Crusade and Heresy.

That's how I think of it, anyway. As with everything else in the setting, nothing is universal, and some areas will know more or less than others. I also think that even the Space Marines' "records" are more myth than history, now.

[Lord Damocles]

Sanguinius is presumably reasonably well known, since he has an annual celebration/holiday in his honour - Sanguinala.

'Of all the Primarchs of the Space Marines it is Sanguinius whose temples rise aside those of the Emperor, and whose name is cherished by ordinary folk in gratitude for the life that was taken and the life that was spared. Alone of all the Primarchs his memory is honoured by a sanctified day of celebration, the Sanguinala, when Adepts across the galaxy wear upon their breast the red badge of the Lord Angel.'
Wargear book (2nd ed.), p64.

[Lord-Caerolion]

I know the fluff mentions the Sanguinala, but seriously, we can't even get a single planet to universally agree about anything religious, good luck trying to get the entire Imperium, with its countless sub-cults and interpretations of the Imperial Creed, to have a common religious day.

[Shamana]

I know the fluff mentions the Sanguinala, but seriously, we can't even get a single planet to universally agree about anything religious, good luck trying to get the entire Imperium, with its countless sub-cults and interpretations of the Imperial Creed, to have a common religious day.

It is still a cap that all legitimate cults fall under - and unlike on earth, all of them have to feature the Emperor on top, so a named saint/demigod/spirit coming with the package seems quite possible. I can imagine certainly imagine missionaries on any planet set up some holiday to him. They won't be nearly the same, obviously, and might not be quite the same day (what with warp travel messing with time), but you could say they would be Sanguinalia.

[Lothlanathorian]

I know the fluff mentions the Sanguinala, but seriously, we can't even get a single planet to universally agree about anything religious

Imperial religions aren't like a comparison between Mormons and Shinto or Taoists and whatever it is Fred Phelps is preaching, it's like comparing one Methodist church to a Baptist church to a Lutheran church (which, in 40K, would not be a good thing to have the Dark Angels find out you call your Imperial Cult sect )

[stormblade]

I don't know about comparing Imperial cult with protestan churches. I always felt it was more like a Catholic church because of the diversity of worship ways but centralization of the institution(and taxes probably).

[Scalebug]

I don't know about comparing Imperial cult with protestan churches. I always felt it was more like a Catholic church because of the diversity of worship ways but centralization of the institution(and taxes probably).

Hmmm...I think you missed his point...

[Lord-Caerolion]

Well, except for the fact that we're told that the only thing the various Imperial Cults have in common is that they worship a being called the Emperor. How they do so and in what way is pretty much up to the planet. Some worship him as the sun, others as the sky-god, others as a figure on a distant, nameless planet, others as He On Terra, and so on for countless planets.

To put it another way, Sanguinius was undoubtedly different from normal in appearance, given his wings. On the vast, vast majority of planets, what the Primarchs exactly were would be lost to time, either understood only as the beings who liberated their world in the dawn of time, or as the saints, or even sons, of the Emperor, if they're even known at all. So, it almost certainly wouldn't be known that Sanguinius was created with wings, or at least that they were accepted by the Emperor. Now, let's have a look at the Cult of the Red Redemption, a cult that is infamous of its hostility towards mutation, and apparently a relatively common belief. Such a cult would hold any worship of a winged being as heretical, as the Emperor wouldn't approve of any damned mutant!
Hell, we're given a canon example of a Space Marine Chapter being declared Excommunicate Traitoris for worshipping the Emperor in a way that a Cardinal didn't like (the Steel Cobras). There is nowhere near as much unification amongst Imperial Cults as some people are making out. To quote from Blood of Martyrs:

Thus, the so-called 'Imperial Creed' takes on as many forms as there are planets in the Imperium. Though all espouse the worship of the same deity - the Emperor - the followers of many worlds would scarcely feel any kinship with one another or recognise that both venerate the same god. There are worlds where priests cast living sacrifices into the throats of volcanoes, believing that the Emperor dwells in the fiery depths and the victims become his favoured servants. Other believers hold that the God-Emperor resides at the burning heart of their sun, which only their constant veneration guarantees will rise above the horizon each dawn. Others know something of the truth - that the Emperor sits upon his Golden Throne on distant Terra - but even among these, there are countless variations in the forms and styles of worship.

To argue that every single planet in the Imperium recognises as being known as Sanguinius, who is important enough to have a holy day called the Sanguinala, goes against everything we know about the Ecclesiarchy, and the Imperium in general. Do some planets hold it? Undoubtedly. I'd say it's a relatively wide-spread holiday, as these things go in the Imperium. To have it known across the entire Imperium though? Pretty much impossible. If there are planets that don't even know what Terra is, there's going to be far,far more that don't know the names of one of his 9/18 sons, let alone what he did.

[Lord Damocles]

To be fair, the snippet on Sanguinala doesn't actually say that every world celebrates it [in a uniform manner].

[stormblade]

Hmmm...I think you missed his point...

I don't think I have, I just thought that better comparison would be say Mexican Catholics and Polish Catholics or something as they are both under umbrella of Vatican (that is there is a higher authority) which governs them all despite the differences.

I mean his comparison is valid I just thought this would be a bit better.

[Bonzai]

Its funny. I always figured that Sanguinus would have some sort of religious significance in the imperial creed. As an angelic symbol of protection and martyrdom, I imagine more than a few pray directly to him for help.

So much so, that it is my belief that the Sanguinor is the manifestation of that belief and prayer. A warp entity created from a milenia of this worship, and is able to cross over when the veil is weak and act as a protector and fight chaos. He isn't Sanguinus per say, but is instead the warp manifestation of the belief in him.

Thats my theory anyways.

[Lothlanathorian]

I don't think I have, I just thought that better comparison would be say Mexican Catholics and Polish Catholics or something as they are both under umbrella of Vatican (that is there is a higher authority) which governs them all despite the differences.

I mean his comparison is valid I just thought this would be a bit better.

I just wanted a religion (Christianity/Imperial Whateveritscalled) that worshiped the same figure (Christ/The Big E), but, that have several different interpretations (Catholicism is one, Protestantism is many). And I can name more Protestant religions than I can variations on Catholicism.

Also, most of the Imperial Cults base at least the core of their teachings on whatever that book Lorgar wrote is called. The only worls that have Imperial contact and that are excluded from the more rigorous enforcement of this are Space Marine recruiting worlds.

So, really, the only thing that I didn't include that I should have was Catholicism as the 'official' Imperial Faith as enforced by the Ecclesiaarchy and the various Protestant faiths are akin to the various Imperial Cults.

SO, to bring this back around, knowing all the saints of the Imperium may be taught by the Ecclesiarchy, but, many of the other Imperial Cults may have a bigger, more extreme focus or something much, much less extreme. As with 90% of background discussion about Imperial worlds, it all depends on which world you're on.

[Erazmus_M_Wattle]

The mention of Catholicism versus protestantism is a bit misleading. It implies that they are different. They're really not. They're 99.9% the same at the core of it. It's only the surface trappings that are different. In the western world anyway. Both sides of the schism have elements that are nearly unrecognisable.

In regards to the Imperial cult I've always understood it that the religious practices each imperial world can be as radically different from one another as they are culturally different.

The imperium covers many vastly different types of world. Highly advanced planets may understand the history in a manner much closer to the truth. They may very well know the names of the loyalist Primarchs.

Pre-industrial or stone age worlds wouldn't stand much of a hope getting the details right.

[Hendarion]

Guys, stop using real-world-religions, this is strictly forbidden on warseer, even as a reference! They hand out warning about that without being shy.

[Lothlanathorian]

It's not forbidden at all when kept in the proper context. Dropping it now, since the points have already been thoroughly made, however, would be wise so as not to derail the thread.