The Imperium and Flesh Crafting

[Grey Hunter 88]

This is a question that is coming up during one of my RPG games.

One of my players is a Heretek Genetor, working in the employ of a Rogue Trader. He recently had his leg torn off by a Flesh Hound, and instead of replacing it with bionics as would be common, wants to try and grow himself a new limb.

I know that such science does exist in 40k. I've heard all sorts of references to vat-grown organisms and such (muscles, servitors, cherubs etc), but I was curious as to just how complex and rare it actually is.

What kind of work and resources would he require to engage in such operations, and are they relatively common procedures for a genetor, or are they only the purview of the most esteemed and learned members of the Magos Biologis?

Thanks!

[terradax]

With influence and mony, that kind of thing would be possible. In 'Eisenhorn' by Dan Abnett, Eisenhorn has his hand shot off. He refuses bionics or a prostetic, so he walks around with a fused stump for more than two years.

[MajorWesJanson]

Why not take the easy route? Next time a limb is going to be chopped off someone else, say someone going to be executed, or converted into a servitor who will have it replaced with tracks or something, just take that one and bond it to the stump? Seems faster and cheaper than growing one from scratch to me.

[FarseerMatt]

Because of tissue rejection. If you grow it from your own cloned cells then you won't have this problem.

[AndrewGPaul]

It's the future. Plus, there's magic. If you think that using limbs taken from condemned criminals and heretics fits the idea of your character or campaign, don't let something as unimportant as actual facts stop you.

Clearly, there's ways round such issues, since the Space Marines seem to manage OK.

[FarseerMatt]

It's the future. Plus, there's magic. If you think that using limbs taken from condemned criminals and heretics fits the idea of your character or campaign, don't let something as unimportant as actual facts stop you.

I suppose it does sound like the crazy sort of thing they'd do in the Imperium. Graft the hand of a dead heretic onto a faithful person so that it can do good in death as it could not in life (stigma and possible calls of heresy from some hardliners about the graftee making himself 'impure', naturally, a given). Or perhaps it's a weird act of penance, to use a criminal's flesh so that all their deeds are tainted by the hand of a sinner...

[Theocracity]

That's an awesome idea, Farseer. I may just steal it for a bit of flavor in a future batrep / Dark Heresy game, if you don't mind .

[FarseerMatt]

Not at all, on the condition that you PM me the battle report.

[Theocracity]

Heh, no prob. The link in my sig has the hub for my group's various story-based reports if you're interested. I'll give you a shout-out if we use it

Follow-up cool idea: an inquisitor who replaces his eyes with those of a heretic's, so he can track down heresy by seeing the world through the eyes of a sinner.

Edit: Or heck, even a sect of Oblationists (is that right?) that Frankenstein themselves with sinner's bodies so they can use demon weapons without corrupting their 'pure' flesh. Cut off your own arm, graft a heretic's arm on, cremate the amputation and carry it around in an urn on your belt as a sign of purity. How grimdark is that?

[Harwammer]

The pragmatist would put the amputated arm into storage so when you are done handling demonic technology you can remove the sinner's hand (post humerous pardon for the donor on account of their services to the imperium, of course) and replace the sinner's hand with the original from storage.

[Chem-Dog]

In 'Eisenhorn' by Dan Abnett, Eisenhorn has his hand shot off. He refuses bionics or a prostetic, so he walks around with a fused stump for more than two years.

Yeah. He's a busy guy though, it's entirely possible the two year wait was, at least partially, down to an inability to schedule an appointment with Clones-R-Us. Or it could be that some portion of the wait was taken up by the culturing and growing of a replacement part. How long would it take to "Gestate" a part (or would you make an entire clone and then hack off the bits you need and harvest the rest for later eventualities)? Would you make a full copy or simply clone the different materials and the "craft" the hand (which should increase turnover time)? And how long would it take for a part to mature to such a degree that it's compatible with the full-grown recipient? Throw in those considerations, a two year wait for a cloned graft might actually be pretty good service.

While on the subject of Gregor and clones, he does actually buy an entire "vat grown" human at one point.



Genetic manipulation is easy and Cloning isn't very hard at all. That's my basic answer to the question. The Adeptus Mechanicus cooks up entire armies of Servitors and/or Skittarii constantly.
Criminal gang members can buy vat grown muscle pretty easily enough and, although criminal gangs aren't necessarily all that poor, they aren't planetary governor rich either meaning it's not just the preserve of the elite super-wealthy. The technology has to be widespread enough that individuals capable of using it and willing to sell it to underworld types are able to on an almost universal scale (which implies it's not illegal). Assuming there's no handwavium regarding a universal tissue-type, this would probably require some kind of cloning, a sample of the client's DNA/Stem Cells or whatever are taken and the part(s) grown to order.
So this then means that legal (licenced?) practitioners are fairly easy to find on a civilised world which also suggests less legal ones might be available too, or at least ones that are willing to not ask too many questions.
If vat cultured tissue/organs/organelles/organisms are neither illegal or prohibitively expensive, the machineries and resources required to do the job yourself are going to be available from somewhere, if you have the funds. As a Heretek you might just have the know-how to build everything you need out of raw materials, or you might simply buy the necessary equipment. Theft is also an option. Or borrow a workstation at a local gene-splicing boutique, paying a decent price to the proprietor to keep him sweet (and discreet)

[Todorius]

Yes I agree if the Imperium can create vast amounts of vat grown humans simply for servitors I don't think that making one simple hand is out of the question

[Sai-Lauren]

In 'Eisenhorn' by Dan Abnett, Eisenhorn has his hand shot off. He refuses bionics or a prostetic, so he walks around with a fused stump for more than two years.
Yeah. He's a busy guy though, it's entirely possible the two year wait was, at least partially, down to an inability to schedule an appointment with Clones-R-Us. Or it could be that some portion of the wait was taken up by the culturing and growing of a replacement part. How long would it take to "Gestate" a part (or would you make an entire clone and then hack off the bits you need and harvest the rest for later eventualities)?

Found this on wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regener...iology)#Humans

In August 2005, Lee Spievack, then in his early sixties, accidentally sliced off the tip of his right middle finger just above the first phalanx. His brother, Dr. Alan Spievack, was researching regeneration and provided him with powdered extracellular matrix, developed by Dr. Stephen Badylak of the McGowan Institute of Regenerative Medicine. Mr. Spievack covered the wound with the powder, and the tip of his finger re-grew in four weeks.[34] The news was released in 2007. Lee Spievack is the first documented case of an adult human regenerating fingertips;[32] however, Ben Goldacre has described this as "the missing finger that never was", claiming that fingertips regrow and quoted Simon Kay, professor of hand surgery at the University of Leeds, who from the picture provided by Goldacre described the case as seemingly "an ordinary fingertip injury with quite unremarkable healing"

If we say growth is about 2mm a week (first phalanx is the outmost joint isn't it?), then to regrow a hand (mine's 20cm from wrist to tip of the middle finger), you're looking at about 100 weeks.

As he's an active agent, it's probably easier for him to leave it growing in an Inquisitorial medicae lab somewhere and get it grafted on at a later date than have a constant set of treatments being done on the stump and growing hand in the field.

[Chem-Dog]

If we say growth is about 2mm a week (first phalanx is the outmost joint isn't it?), then to regrow a hand (mine's 20cm from wrist to tip of the middle finger), you're looking at about 100 weeks.

Nice find

Issue here is complexity, regenerating the meat of a fingertip is one thing, but forming an entire working hand is something else entirely.

As he's an active agent, it's probably easier for him to leave it growing in an Inquisitorial medicae lab somewhere and get it grafted on at a later date than have a constant set of treatments being done on the stump and growing hand in the field.

Oh definitely. I can't conceive of any practical way one would be able to regrow an entire hand in-situ and still be able to go about your daily activities, especially if you're a detective/spy super agent Inquisitor type. Get it grown while you're off doing other stuff and then undergo a graft and then a short rehabilitation programme when you've got a bit of down-time.


I like the idea of the artificial construction of components which are then combined to make a whole, assembly line style, over the complete generation of a whole hand in one go. You can then bypass any problems with growing an infant hand and then having to accelerate it's growth to adult size, a process which would still be relatively slow and could lead to tertiary developmental issues like osteoporosis or structural irregularities.

Once you have that essential framework the squishier bits can be grown around it in a much more rapid fashion using whatever biochemical witchcraft you care to come up with.

[AntiPaladin]

Already cannon that not only can you regrow and attach new tissue, you can also attach pieces from other people. See the final Last Chancers book.

Spoiler:
Before the final assault, Schaeffer says to Kage "You think I was born with eyes like these? They were a gift from a Tech-Priest who sinned against the Machine God. A servitor doesn't need eyes to monitor the temperature in a plasma reactor"

[Sai-Lauren]

We can do that now, the only real issues are tissue matching and organ rejection, which leads to some people requiring immuno-suppressants for the rest of their lives, and thus running the risk of minor illnesses becoming much more serious.

I think there have been a couple of full hand transplants, although I can't remember how successful they were in the longer term.

[ctsteel]

You could always throw in some psyker interaction to assist with the process - say speeding up the cellular generation rate, or helping with grafting the hand on and getting all the nerves to re-bind (finally some 'real' psychic surgery )

[Sai-Lauren]

Probably some combination of micro-surgery, augmetics, physiotherapy, drug regimens and psychic/empathic healing, depending on the person being healed and their view point - I could see certain Ordo:Hereticus puritans demanding no one brings a psychic healer anywhere near them, for example.

[wraithtechtyrant]

Colonel Schaeffer of the last chancers was literally ran over by a tank and had his spine i believe re grown. I dont know military ranks but he is a penal legion officer so it must not be too hard in the 40k universe to do such a complicated sounding thing