GK/Inquisition: 2000 points, first list, seaking feedback

[Cryptek Emissary]

40K Army: Daemonhunters

Ok, thanks to some help, I've now got a full 2000pt list to work on. But before going too much further with it, I'd like some feedback. I've got fluff based reasons for some of my choices here, but I'm trying to combine that with some tactical smarts

HQ
Brother Captain Emryin: Pair of Nemesis Falchions [Mastercrafted], Incinerator, Empyrian Brain-mines, Digital Weapons [185pts]
Inquisitor Merah, Ordo Hereticus (Xenos tutored): Needle Pistol, psychotroke grenades, digital weapons, Psyker [90pts]

Elites
Inquisitorial Warband: 4 Ishan Crusaders, 4 Death Cult Assassins, Interrogator Lyrr (Mystic) [130pts]
OR 2 Jokero Weaponsmiths, 7 Bolter Warriors, 1 Bolter in Power Armour, Interrogator Lyrr (Mystic) [130pts]
Terminator Squad Emryin (Paladins): 5 man squad, 1 Daemon Hammer, 1 Falchion Duelist, 2 Halberds, 1 Sword, 2 Psycannon. [All MasterCrafted] [365pts]
Vindicare Assassin [145pts]

Troops
Terminator Squad Sangui: 5 Force Halbards, Psycannon [220pts]
Terminator Squad Bahn: 5 Nemesis Falchion. Psycannon [245pts]

Heavy Support
Purgation Squad: 4 Psycannon, Justicar with Sword [180pts]
Dreadnought: Twin Linked Lascannon, Heavy Flamer, Nemesis Doomfist, Extra Armour [170pts]
Nemesis Dreadknight: Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword, Personal Teleporter [270pts]

Total: 2000pts

Ok, following a discussion in the Background forum, I've been considering a GK army. I've got some fluff ideas that I'd really like to play with, but I'd like some idea from you guys to suggest where I should go with this.

I'm not going to go into the story in full just yet, but here are the guidelines I'm looking at.

1; Minimal GK bodies on the field. I want the impression of a small GK force, a detachment fully seconded to the Inquisition rather than a Brotherhood in their own right. Perhaps with heavy equipment to make up the lack, but still, I really want the idea of a minimal number of bodies, at least for the Knights themselves (see #3).

2; No purifiers. Fluff reasons, I'm afraid. I can work in a Paladin unit into my planed story though (though with them being that expensive, I'm not sure how good an idea they are. )

3; I want the Inquisitorial Warband to be useful and helpful. There are a lot of options, but I'm really not sure what's best with them. Any thoughts on how best to put a Warband together?

4; HQ choices are the one thing I have set in stone: Brother-Captain and an Inquisitor. I'm less set on specific load-out though, or even the Inquisitor's Ordo... any advice?

[Aluinn]

Ok, following a discussion in the Background forum, I've been considering a GK army. I've got some fluff ideas that I'd really like to play with, but I'd like some idea from you guys to suggest where I should go with this.

I'm not going to go into the story in full just yet, but here are the guidelines I'm looking at.

1; Minimal GK bodies on the field. I want the impression of a small GK force, a detachment fully seconded to the Inquisition rather than a Brotherhood in their own right. Perhaps with heavy equipment to make up the lack, but still, I really want the idea of a minimal number of bodies, at least for the Knights themselves (see #3).

2; No purifiers. Fluff reasons, I'm afraid. I can work in a Paladin unit into my planed story though (though with them being that expensive, I'm not sure how good an idea they are. )

3; I want the Inquisitorial Warband to be useful and helpful. There are a lot of options, but I'm really not sure what's best with them. Any thoughts on how best to put a Warband together?

4; HQ choices are the one thing I have set in stone: Brother-Captain and an Inquisitor. I'm less set on specific load-out though, or even the Inquisitor's Ordo... any advice?

Well I've done pretty much this thing, so I can comment on it a bit from what little I've learned so far. I'm not the world's foremost expert on GK (or Inquisition as the case may be) but I've played around with them off and on since the release of Codex: Daemonhunters. Anyway, point-by-point:

1. There's no specific way to do this; take as many as you feel like (which would be not many, based on your stated preference), of whatever type you feel like. Don't be afraid to take none at all if you really don't like GK Marines; you very certainly do not need them to make a competitive army, contrary to popular belief, nor are they an auto-win button of some kind. If you do take them, the basic rule of thumb is to include a couple hammers in each unit (depending on size; 1 per 5 models is about right, though Terminators may want more if you have the bits), take psycannon bolts if you have more than 4 models with storm bolters, and especially in units of 10, and max out psycannons, always; pretend the other weapon options do not exist, although I know the incinerator looks good (it is; just not half as good as a psycannon). This goes for any manner of GK Termy or Marine squad, really. Also, needless to say, halberds are pretty darn good, though swords for Termies got better in 6th since almost everything with AP2 in close combat strikes at I1 and thus after swords; throwing a couple swords into a GK Termy unit, or just giving one to the Justicar to enhance his ability to challenge out power fist sergeants, is worth considering.

2. Paladins are okay, but avoid the Apothecary at all costs, because he's ridiculously overpriced, and warding staves for the same reason. I feel fairly confident in saying that the best way to take them is in a unit of 5 with 2 master-crafted psycannons and no other upgrades that cost any points (weapon variants are free), unless maybe you want to master-craft your hammers, which can also be worthwhile when you have extra points laying around, though it's not strictly necessary. If you start adding more crud than that at all, they become stupidly overpriced, and their main selling point is that they give you a good psycannon-quantity-to-total-unit-cost ratio and can master-craft their psycannons, e.g. compared to Troops Termies.

3. There are basically two ways to do this in an optimal fashion, competitively speaking. The first is an assaulty unit composed of some combination of Death Cult Assassins and Crusaders--the Crusaders of course being put in front and eating shots, though a pure DCA unit is also something you can do if you have an assault transport, i.e. a Land Raider or Storm Raven, to put them in--they will mulch anything they touch. The second recommended composition is a shooty unit consisting of 2 Jokaero (this gives you the most efficient and reliable use of the table and roughly guarantees you one of the four random buffs, with an off chance to get two of them--it also avoids making the unit obscenely expensive for a fragile squad, because Jokaero are not cheap) and some number of Acolytes. The Acolytes can be armed in a variety of viable ways, but I recommend bolters and, though I don't personally use them, 3 plasma guns. I'll make a special point to say you should avoid Servitors because they seem to tempt a lot of people who are new to using Henchmen: They aren't good compared to 4-point dudes with cheap plasma guns (or meltaguns if for some reason you feel that you need them, though in 6th I don't really think you ever would in this unit), their mindlock rule is crippling and restricts your Inquisitor(s) to hanging around with a specific, shooty unit, and their weapons just aren't good enough for them to be worth using. You really have to see or accurately imagine how they work in a game to understand why they suck, but if you're willing to just take my word for it: Servitors suck.

In 5th I would have added that tiny, suicidal Acolyte units with 3 meltaguns were a viable way to go, especially if you were running Chimeras or Psybacks, but I don't think this is necessary or even worth doing anymore.

(I have not used a unit of Psykers though theoretically these seem like they could be decent, not because they're amazingly powerful--they're about the most fragile thing in the game past Grots--but because they are very threatening for how cheap they can be, and would thus force your opponent to expend time and effort going after a cheapo unit or eat high-strength, low-AP pie.)

4. Competitively speaking, if you're taking one Inquisitor, there is no real choice: You take Coteaz. He is by far the best the deal you can get in an Inquisitor even if you only take into account what he himself has/can do (2+ save, daemonhammer, Mastery Level 2 Psyker that can take Divination, re-rolls to Seize the Initiative or making it near impossible for your opponent to do so, a halfway decent gun, allowing his unit to shoot at stuff arriving from Reserve, etc. etc.), but what really cinches it is that he makes your Henchmen units of all types scoring Troops. If you take a second Inquisitor the consensus is generally that the rad grenades and psychotroke grenades provided by the Ordo Xenos make him/her the best choice, because, well, those grenades are OP and this is the cheapest model that can carry them, though personally I think there is a lot of potential in 6th for a Hereticus Inquisitor with a psyocculum in a shooty unit to be pretty amazing against many armies due to the proliferation of psykers.

[Cryptek Emissary]

Ok... here's my stab at a full list, working from that. Thanks Aluinn! I'll update the first post to have it too. I didn't go with your advice entirely: I don't want to come across as cheap, and wanted the force to reflect the Captain's personality somewhat, but I tried to work from your advice to make something that manages to be somewhat competitive, but also fun and flavourful.

HQ
Brother Captain Emryin: Pair of Nemesis Falchion, Digital Weapons [165pts]
Inquisitor Merah, Ordo Hereticus (Xenos tutored): Needle Pistol, psychotroke grenades, digital weapons, Psyker [90pts]

Elites
Inquisitorial Warband: 4 Ishan Crusaders, 4 Death Cult Assassins, Interrogator Lyrr (Mystic) [130pts]
OR 2 Jokero Weaponsmiths, 7 Bolter Warriors, 1 Bolter in Power Armour, Interrogator Lyrr (Mystic) [130pts]
Venerable Dreadnought: Twin Linked Lascannon, Heavy Flamer, Nemesis Doomfist, Extra Armour [230pts]
Terminator Squad Emryin (Paladins): 5 man squad, 2 Daemon Hammers, 2 Halberds, 1 Sword. [275pts]

Troops
Terminator Squad Sangui: 5 Force Halbards [200pts]
Terminator Squad Bahn: 5 Daemon Hammers [200pts]

Fast Attack
Interception Squad Omicron: Ten man squad [260pts]

Heavy Support
Purgation Squad: 4 Psycannon, Justicar with Sword [180pts]
Nemesis Dreadknight: Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword, Personal Teleporter [270pts]

Total: 2000pts

[Commandojimbob]

The one thing that strikes me as odd is that your list does not achieve your fluffy aim of minimal GK - quite the opposite as far as I can see. You have 1 Inquisitor and 8/9 Henchmen that makes up 11% of a 2k list - 89% is GK, made up of 15 Terminators (5 Paladins), 15 Power armour variants , a NDK (pure GK) and a Venerable Dread - so somewhat confused.

As for the list itself - drastically lacking punch - if I were you I would be giving Psycannons to the terminators and paladins, personally I would be having one unit of 10 Terminators, paying for Psybolt and Psycannons, then combat squad them - I would always have a sword - 4+ Invul is very useful.

Also - Venerable Dreads are just not worth the premium you pay IMO - save points on having a normal dread - especially one at range where BS4 twinlinked is plenty good enough.

[Cryptek Emissary]

It's less a matter of percentiles: with this codex, you can't give too many points towards the INQ, especially if you want a GK HQ choice. So I tried to just limit numbers of bodies, make it look small overall. Dunno if I succeeded in that, but I tried: all but one of the GK squads is at half strength.

I strongly considered Psycannons on the termies: is leaving them out that drastic? I like the look and style of giving the GK main warrior squads Nemesis weaponry. I was considering each of them having a specific role: the Hammers and Purgators holding the line, and the Halbards charging alongside the Paladins.

I'll go with your call on the Ven Dread, though I'll wait to change the list until I can think of something else to go with. Picking up a second walker type was done mostly to bring up the points value

[Commandojimbob]

I guess I am looking at this from my own take.

I have an Inquisition force I am working on, it is a project log in my sig., and to me an Inquisition force needs to comprise a lot more than an Inquisitor and a few henchmen, and to me your list looks like a Grey Knights force with an Inquisitor tagging along to capture some information or perhaps he is ultimately in charge using Grey Knights as his tool, not what typically comes to hand with the Inquisition first and foremost.

My take on an Inquisition list is that GK should be limited - So GK content I have : Librarian and 5 Terminators and 2 Dreads (27%) . Inquisition content : Coteaz, Xenos Inq, Malleus Inq, Vindicare, Callidus, 4x 10 henchmen units (mixed roles) with 3 Inquisitorial Chimeras (53%) Neutral content : Redeemer and Stormraven (20%)

I dont want to say your list is wrong and mine is right - my point was that you say you want an Inquisition force but it is mostly a GK force - which is what seemed a bit odd to me.

As for specific roles - I too like giving specific roles to units but ultimately they need synergy - which means it is a lot easier to do a mix in the unit. Purgators holding the line, ok fine though they would hold the line a lot better within a bunker - say a Chimera with 5 fire points. Hammers holding line ? think about it - why use an I1 unit to hold the line - they will get hit first in combat and any unit line breaking will normally be reasonably tough in CC (not always the case but you get my point) - argueably Halberds are best to hold the line , hence why Halberds are usually given to "Guards" classically or as an anti-charge front line deployment.

[Bartali]

I strongly considered Psycannons on the termies: is leaving them out that drastic? I like the look and style of giving the GK main warrior squads Nemesis weaponry. I was considering each of them having a specific role: the Hammers and Purgators holding the line, and the Halbards charging alongside the Paladins.

Note one per five Terminators can have a NFW and a Psycannon, you don't loose the NFW by taking a Psycannon as you do with Strikes.
On that note, only 10 scoring models at 2k points isn't going to do you any favours.....

[Cryptek Emissary]

Erm... I might be missing an FAQ, but by the Codex, Nemesis Hammers AREN'T I1: they go from the baseline int of the unit. So I4. Isn't that... at least reasonable? And yeah, Hammers are tough weapons, and go beyond Force Weapon status, so if there's a unit who'd hit heaviest in CC, wouldn't it be those guys?

And I actually agree, strongly with your PoV on an Inquisition force. I still remember Codex Witch Hunters, which sold me on the INQ. But... Well, I need Cortez to pull that off, and I don't like using SC. If you can think of a way for me to up the INQ contribution of this army without Cortez, I'd love to hear it. Otherwise, I'm just left hoping for an 'Allies' book that gives rules for larger INQ units.

Or I'm left tracking down the Sisters FAQ, but... well, my Brother Captain served in the Fourth Company during a certain event...

[Cryptek Emissary]

Note one per five Terminators can have a NFW and a Psycannon, you don't loose the NFW by taking a Psycannon as you do with Strikes.
On that note, only 10 scoring models at 2k points isn't going to do you any favours.....

Ah. Hadn't noticed that. Hmm... How do the models look when they combine the two?

As to only ten scoring models... yeah, I'm aware of that. Rules wise, I really, REALLY should take Cortez. I'm trying to be as effective in combat as possible, with minimal GK

[Commandojimbob]

Ah. Hadn't noticed that. Hmm... How do the models look when they combine the two?

As to only ten scoring models... yeah, I'm aware of that. Rules wise, I really, REALLY should take Cortez. I'm trying to be as effective in combat as possible, with minimal GK

Models look fine when combined ! If you want to do Inquisition with GK and not GK with Inquisition then Coteaz is a must I am affraid - if you want to stay away from the model of Coteaz, then make your own and use his rules.

Erm... I might be missing an FAQ, but by the Codex, Nemesis Hammers AREN'T I1: they go from the baseline int of the unit. So I4. Isn't that... at least reasonable? And yeah, Hammers are tough weapons, and go beyond Force Weapon status, so if there's a unit who'd hit heaviest in CC, wouldn't it be those guys?

And I actually agree, strongly with your PoV on an Inquisition force. I still remember Codex Witch Hunters, which sold me on the INQ. But... Well, I need Cortez to pull that off, and I don't like using SC. If you can think of a way for me to up the INQ contribution of this army without Cortez, I'd love to hear it. Otherwise, I'm just left hoping for an 'Allies' book that gives rules for larger INQ units.

Or I'm left tracking down the Sisters FAQ, but... well, my Brother Captain served in the Fourth Company during a certain event...

Nemesis Daemon Hammers are "Unwieldy" - which is strike at I1 like all Hammers - I think you are thinking of the Hammer wielded by a Dreadknight.

Unless you go Coteaz, it is GK with an Inquisitor. The only other way is to go GK using Imperial Guard as Allies - modelling them as Henchmen. OR you could go 2000pts+ and have dual FOC like my log list at 2500pts - that way you could have 3 Inquisitors - model 1 as an Inquisitor, the other 2 as his leading guys, all with henchmen units.

Otherwise Coteaz is your best bet

[Cryptek Emissary]

Models look fine when combined ! If you want to do Inquisition with GK and not GK with Inquisition then Coteaz is a must I am affraid - if you want to stay away from the model of Coteaz, then make your own and use his rules.

I know, I know. I just hate doing that...

And fluff wise, GK with Inquisition does make sense, just with the INQ in overall command. I am ok with this, I just want to keep the GK force small. A detatchment, rather than a full army of GK.

Nemesis Daemon Hammers are "Unwieldy" - which is strike at I1 like all Hammers - I think you are thinking of the Hammer wielded by a Dreadknight.

Erm... You got me. Checking, yeah, I misread the note in the description, thinking that applied to all users of the Hammer.

Unless you go Coteaz, it is GK with an Inquisitor. The only other way is to go GK using Imperial Guard as Allies - modelling them as Henchmen. OR you could go 2000pts+ and have dual FOC like my log list at 2500pts - that way you could have 3 Inquisitors - model 1 as an Inquisitor, the other 2 as his leading guys, all with henchmen units.

Otherwise Coteaz is your best bet

GK with an Inquisitor does fit my fluff pretty well, and I'm ok with that. I just don't want it to be a lot of GK. It's supposed to be a small independant command, rather than a full brotherhood: A minor, unimportant group all in all. (As my Brother Captain isn't held in high regard by his fellows: he abandoned the quest to become a Paladin, and has a known long standing grudge with some fellow brothers) If I could use INQ stormtroopers, and thus get away with one or two half squads of GK, I would, but as things stand, I'm just trying to keep the model count down.

[Commandojimbob]

In that case go for it and have fun

But consider the finer points raised with regards to the list tweaks - fluff is one thing, but to be fun you do need it to function well.

[Cryptek Emissary]

*nods* I'll probably retone it to add Psycanons (lots of psycanons) and iron it out overall.

Hmm... I hadn't planned to include her, but I DO have my old Cladius Assassin still. If I take out the Ven Dread...

[Commandojimbob]

*Was walking into the sunset, happy with the advise given........hears the above and stops dead in tracks, turns and runs waving arms frantically shouting "NOT THE CALLIDUS!"*

Um...... I must say that even though the Callidus is in my list, she is rubbish ! Reason in my list...... fluffy and she will be replaced!

I have used her so many times now and she really is not very good. She will appear and MIGHT do some damage on entry with the D6 S4 AP1 appearance and Ld8 vs target, AP1 flamer, however, more often than not she does little and dies horribly. A big distraction absolutely - if your opponent ignores her then they are a fool since she will then cause CC pain at I7 causing Instant death per wound - but she is SOOOOO hit and miss you need to be sure on her inclusion - personally you would be better with the Vindicare.

I have also tried the Callidus starting on the board, in a Storm raven and in a Landraider - she is quite hard to use, namely because she is too expensive and fragile.

I still persist but I would never use her in a competitive tournament - purely in games amongst my mates.

[Cryptek Emissary]

...

Ok, ok. Would a Vindicare be any better? She's not perticularly fluffy for my list, and I'd be happy to drop her for something else of about the same point count

[Oh, list updated BTW, to include Assassin, and Psycannons. I still need to phase out the VenDread, but that gives me some room to get some extra points together.

EDIT: Ok, I'm freckin' blind! Ta, then that's what I'll go with. Working on new list now.

[Cryptek Emissary]

Ok, new list, with a Vindicare, a normal dread, and some buffs for the Brother Captain and his squad