Grey knights/force weapons

[Commissar Merces]

So I got a bit of a question here.

Last weekend I played grey knights with my tyranids and while I still won, there was a bit of confusion regarding force weapons.

Question number 1: Do force cause instant death immediately after they wound or at the end of the phase? Like in past editions.

Question number 2: Can a force weapon (strength 4) wound and insta kill a creature double it's strength? (T9)

Question number 3: In a combat involving a drago wing (ten terminators + Drago) against 2 trygons, 1 harpy, 1 hive tyrant, and 6 raveners, can the grey knights divide their psychic attack against multiple models to cause instant death or is the activation of their force weapon a one power for the whole squad? If every single model can insta kill a different monstrous creature (especially if question number one is immediately after they wound) I find that a bit broken.

Thoughts?

[Lord Zarkov]

1) As soon as the wound is taken.

2) Force weapons don't allow you to hurt models you couldn't usually, but there's no specific restrictions regarding to toughness.

So a Grey Knight with sword couldn't hurt your T9 example, but Typhus with his poisoned Force Weapon could.

3) The Grey Knight force weapon activation is one test that makes the whole squad cause Instant Death with all wounds for the rest of the phase - so yes if you charge lots of multi-wound stuff into them they'll make a mess of it.

[Mr_Rose]

1. Immediately after they wound (before FNP) assuming you pass h psychic test.

2. No, you have to actually inflict wounds first. But, assuming you do find a way to wound, relative S/T is irrelevant to the ID inflicted.

3. For GK it is indeed one activation for the squad, at the earliest I they have. It is however a separate activation for Draigo, not least because he doesn't actually have a nemesis force weapon.
Anyway, once active, every wound they inflict will cause ID, so yes they could potentially kill a whole bunch of MCs that way.

[Bubble Ghost]

Yeah. The moment you establish that a model has lost a wound to a force weapon(s), that's when you have the option to activate it. That wound, and all the wounds still to be allocated from the force weapon(s), now have the Instant Death rule.

The thing to remember, as Mr Rose said, is that you have to actually inflict a wound to qualify - just passing a wound roll alone doesn't do it, and neither does a save being failed. The wound actually has to be doled out to a model, and all of that model's defences must fail, before you can fire up the force weapon(s).

[Commissar Merces]

Would you get deny the witch against this attack?

Thanks guys, guess he did that right (except double strength which I corrected anyways).

[Bubble Ghost]

Would you get deny the witch against this attack?

You'll find the answer to this clearly spelled out in the Force rule on page 37.

[Commissar Merces]

Many thanks, but I am not able to view the rulebook right now.

Force Halberds strike at +2 int. (which was my major problem in this game) and are AP 3. This basically rendered my trygons, my tyrant, and my harpy useless as soon as a wound was inflicted, it was game over as it pierced their armor and did not have an invul save. So the terminators (while needing sixes to wound) simply had to get a six per monstrous creature to kill them as their +2 int. was better than anything I had initiative wise.

[Kelanen]

These are all factors in why GK are near the top of the pile powerwise and Tyranids near the bottom I'm afraid.

Multiwound creatures have not been worth their points for a few editions sadly. Until they find a way around this problem, Nids are going to be shafted.

[Commissar Merces]

These are all factors in why GK are near the top of the pile powerwise and Tyranids near the bottom I'm afraid.

Multiwound creatures have not been worth their points for a few editions sadly. Until they find a way around this problem, Nids are going to be shafted.

Which is funny as I have been 8-0-1 with nidz in total (combining the end of 5th and start of 6th). I am generally pretty good with them and I still won that game (due to it being the relic and me running away with it and flinging my entire army at those terminators to keep them from reaching my warriors holding it) despite it being a rough match up for me.

I will have to keep that in mind, however, if I face grey knights again anytime soon.

[BigHammer]

Which is funny as I have been 8-0-1 with nidz in total (combining the end of 5th and start of 6th). I am generally pretty good with them and I still won that game (due to it being the relic and me running away with it and flinging my entire army at those terminators to keep them from reaching my warriors holding it) despite it being a rough match up for me.

I will have to keep that in mind, however, if I face grey knights again anytime soon.

You're not alone in your pain; I had a unit of grotesques led by a succubus and a haemonculus ancient charged by Mephiston recently. He passed all his saves against the succubus' electro-corrosive whip and she got splatted in return, which was pretty much the end of that. Watching 18 wounds devoured in 2 rounds of combat was... gutting

[Damocles8]

Which is funny as I have been 8-0-1 with nidz in total (combining the end of 5th and start of 6th). I am generally pretty good with them and I still won that game (due to it being the relic and me running away with it and flinging my entire army at those terminators to keep them from reaching my warriors holding it) despite it being a rough match up for me.

I will have to keep that in mind, however, if I face grey knights again anytime soon.

Lash Whips are your friend......

[wyvirn]

And Tyrant guard, as well as pyroxism. For the tyrant, I mean. The Trygon and Harpy are almost worthless against GKs

[Patriarch]

My next tournament has ruled that FNP is allowed before the force activation, since they are counting it as a "save". Seems wrong to me but never mind as GK have enough advantages. Rather unfair on SM librarians and the like....

GK ICs must roll seperately to activate their force weapons, even the "nemesis" branded ones. Still count as automatic under Brotherhood Banner AFAIK.

[Mr_Rose]

Why the hell would anyone count something that specifically, literally, says it's NOT a save, as a save?

Especially since one of the effects of Instant Death is to negate FNP? Are they also allowing Marines FNP saves vs Krak missiles then?

[Bubble Ghost]

Regardless of whether Feel No Pain is a save or not (and incidentally, the FNP rules take pains to tell you to treat wounds blocked by it as 'saved'), if a wound was blocked by Feel No Pain, then it wasn't inflicted. And the force weapon rules say you have to inflict a wound to activate the weapon. A wound actually has to have been knocked off of someone's stat line to get the Force option, there's no sneaking it in on a technicality.

So a Feel No Pain roll has to fail for the weapon to be activated in the first place, but once it's activated, subsequent wounds from the weapon will then ignore FNP. That tournament isn't making a "ruling" so much as reasserting the rules that are in the book.