What would you like to see in the new Lizardmen armybook? (balance and new units)

[innerwolf]

Hi Warseer-ites and fellow Lizardmen players.
We all know the Lizardmen army book is usually talked about as one of the most powerful out there. But we also know it's due to a handful of (arguably) overpowered choices.
The price we pay is having a very limited set of (very) competitive choices, while the rest of the army book underperform and is rarely used. And it's not like the unit range is very wide (I would venture to say it's one of the smallest in the game).

Taking that into account, what kind of changes and new units would you ask GW to add to the new (not so far in the future according to our respected rumor dealers) armybook in order to have a more interesting, well balanced Lizardmen?

I will give my ideas:

I think the Slann is correctly priced, the problem with them is disciplines and magic items. Making the Slann pay for every discipline (even the first one) and rebalancing their prices (not all of them are worth 50 points), while removing items as the much maligned Cupped Hands, should make Slann balanced in our opponent's eyes.

Carnosaurs could do with a point drop so they are seen more usually, even we know the issue is having to trade the vital Slann for an Oldblood.

Skink Priests would be used as more than Cube-caddies if they could select other lores outside Heavens. Beasts, Light and even Life could work.

Saurus are right as they are, but getting Ini 2 wouldn't unbalance them while doing them not die like flies to Purple Sun/Pit of Shades. Maybe at +1 points?

Kroxigors (by themselves) should get closer to Ironguts price, so they can be fielded 6 strong and benefit from the new MI rules.

Terradons aren't very bad as they are, but giving spears and shields to the riders would round them up.

Cold One Riders are overpriced compared to every other cavalry. An initiative 2 heavy cavalry can't be that expensive. With their stats, they would be perfectly fine at 30 points.

Stegadons and Ancient Stegadons should get integrated, untargeteable crews like the new 8th edition monsters, and be closer in price to their equivalents: Warsphynxes and Stonehorns/Thundertusks.
The Engine of the Gods is too vulnerable depending on a T2 W2 character to work, it could work as a rare unit without needing a Priest (as Mortis Engines and Corpse Carts do without a Necromancer).

Salamanders should get a price hike to make Razordons an interesting option.

Finally, there are units in fluff which could be added to the army to give more variation: Horned One Riders as cheap, missile based light cavalry; Coatl as a spell casting/bound spell using character/rare unit, or one of those king-sized monsters that dwell Lustria (Thunderlizard, for example) and would allow GW to make into one of their beloved massive plastic kits of late.

What are your ideas?

[Voodoo1]

Im a fairly new Lizardmen player, starting in seventh edition. So I don't have that much experience with them, but here are my views.

I think the Oldblood is overpriced. A points drop would help. Overall he is quite nasty on the table top.

I would like to see the spawnings come back. Or at least for temple guards. Give them extra abillities.

Do for Carnasaurs like what the Demigryphs do for empire.

Skinks on horned ones.

I would like to see a Coatl as a mount for skink priests. Or can be used as a stand alone monster. Kind of like the Blood dragon/ Terrorghiest. Make it a spell caster of its own.

Overall - just add more Dino's!!

[tmarichards]

Spawnings back would be a nice touch.

Overall, the main issue I see with Lizards is not that there is a lack of variety but instead lots of balance issues.

Slann need to become much less cost-efficient. Every race's mages should have access to something unique to them in order to keep a certain amount of variety, but Slann should have access to awesome stats (lots of wounds and a 4++ ward) or access to an awesome ability for free or access to multiple undercosted abilities, but not all 3 (and ideally fixing the worst offenders of the Disciplines). As it stands, a fairly standard bare-bones Slann can come in at 365pts as a ld10 general BSB with Loremaster from a rulebook lore and +1 dice to cast with a 4++. This is simply unacceptable from a balance perspective.

Scar-Vets on Cold Ones could do with a price hike, sub-170pts is far too much for what they can currently do.

Salamanders need a price hike (and ideally, are no longer skirmishers when used as a unit of 1), and Razordons could do with a slight decrease.

[MOMUS]

I think the Slann is correctly priced, the problem with them is disciplines and magic items. Making the Slann pay for every discipline (even the first one) and rebalancing their prices (not all of them are worth 50 points), while removing items as the much maligned Cupped Hands, should make Slann balanced in our opponent's eyes.

Im not sure how you came to this conclusion. The slann at base cost with no upgrades is already better than all other LVL4's in the game.


I think things to 'balance' the choices in the book would be a simple point hike for the majority of units (slann, scarvets, saurus, chameleon skinks, salamanders)

I would like priests to become a bit more varied light and beasts would be nice but definitely not life. I would most like to see chiefs become more useful/varied maybe able to upgrade them with abilities (scout, chameleon, sniper, VotFF, frenzy to unit). An extra unit like squig herders with skinks and...lizards?

Bah! Ninja'd by Mr richards.

[Kayosiv]

Kroxigar increased back to strength 5. They should be given a rule called "savage instincts" which would do the following.

Savage Instincts: At the beginning of every close combat round, kroxigar must take a leadership test. If the test is passed, all is well and good and they may fight as normal. If the test is failed, they may not use their great weapons for this round of combat as they revert to their natural savage nature to bite and claw the enemy instead.

This is based on the following fluff passages from the 6th and 7th edition books which I always thought would be cool to be represented on the tabletop.

"The most natural and instinctive way for kroxigar to fight is with their powerful jaws and massive clawed hands." -7th edition book

"...given heavy weapons to smash the enemy with. These weapons are often chained and bound to the arms, wrists, and tails of the kroxigar so they do not drop them, for the most natural and instictive way for kroxigar to fight is with their massive clawed hands and teeth." -6th edition book

I think this would get them back to strength 5, where they need to be fluffwise, but help keep their price down to reasonable levels.

*EDIT:
On other notes, I want chameleon skinks to be rare. They used to be a 0-1 special so you could never have more than 1 unit of them. The game seems to have moved away from 0-1 choices, perhaps to sell more models, but I like the idea of keeping them more rare... so putting them in the rare slot makes sense to me.

I'd like to see Oldbloods go up to leadership 9 so they actually are an alternative to the slann.

Skink chiefs need to be made much cheaper and/or be given options that were taken away from them. Scouting again would be nice, as some sort of buffs to units of skinks they occupy. Currently, they are flat out the worst heroes in the game for their price.

Stegadons need invincible crew in the same vein as similar more modern monsters. Perhaps a tad cheaper taking into account that many of their old rules such as unit strength 10 don't actually exist anymore.

Salamanders should shoot small templates instead of the flame template. They are vastly too good for their price at the moment.

Razordon misfire needs to be less severe than it is now. They're a decent unit but their prime purpose (protecting flanks) is undermined by the fact that in order to do that, they misfire 11/36 of the time.

Saurus warriors need some more punch. Weaponskill 4 on basic sauru makes sense to me (stays the same on cavalry and temple guard) and so does fighting with 2 supporting attacks, although both would be too much.

Skink blowpipes should be strength 2, nerfing them a bit, emphasizing their poison and making javalins a more effective alternative for different purposes. As is right now, javalins are rarely used because they are slightly more accurate but don't get as many shots. When poison is all you care about more shots is the way to go most of the time (sometimes you hit on 7+ and it isn't worth it obviously).

Saurus Cavalry should be able to have 2 supporting attacks or at the very least the mounts should be able to have a supporting attack. They're perfectly evolved to fight with the cold ones as mounts, they should be able to take advantage of that. If nothing else, they should see a massive price dip. Other possibilities are going up to 2 wounds, or getting light armor so they can get a total of a 1+ save.

Lore of light and beasts would be appropriate for skink priests, but it would also be nice to see some spells for the Slann that are unique to them. There are already special characters with their own spells so the idea isn't too far fetched. Speaking of, the Slann of course needs to be bumped up to at least 300 points and lose his free discipline.

Temple guard should have some protection against Slann miscast detonation. They are constantly exposed to magical energy and supposed to be perfectly adapted to protecting the slann for an eternity. It seems odd that the slann would accidentally fry so many on a multitude of miscast results.

Carnosaurs need to have their point cost cut pretty much in half to ever see the tabletop. An alternative would be to make them monstrous beasts instead of monsters so they can actually get a decent armor and ward save, but that's really a problem with the core rules.

I'd really like to see terradon skinks get some dang shields and maybe even spears. I also really like the idea ala Zwup, that they get more dangerous (perhaps +1 attack) once they've dropped their rocks.

[theunwantedbeing]

Stegadon mount for the Slann
Sort the Slann out, he's too good for his points at the moment
Alternate Engine of the Gods
Skink Characters usable from the Lord allowance if the list contains no Saurus characters
Maybe a new Skink creature mount
Bring back Spawnings for Saurus Characters
Horned One Cavalry
Salamanders sorted out
Some sort of Thunder lizard

The current list is pretty good all things considered so there's not a whole lot to really bother adding.
No doubt GW will shoehorn some MC in there somehow.

[Spiney Norman]

Stegadon mount for the Slann
Sort the Slann out, he's too good for his points at the moment
Alternate Engine of the Gods
Skink Characters usable from the Lord allowance if the list contains no Saurus characters
Maybe a new Skink creature mount
Bring back Spawnings for Saurus Characters
Horned One Cavalry
Salamanders sorted out
Some sort of Thunder lizard

The current list is pretty good all things considered so there's not a whole lot to really bother adding.
No doubt GW will shoehorn some MC in there somehow.

A stegadon mount for a Slann, sorry but I don't believe in filling a book with pointless combos that no-one in their right mind would ever use, Mazdamundi already has that and I've never seen anyone use him, plus offering it as a generic option would take away from Lord Maz's uniqueness.

The Slann needs rebalancing. In actual fact the Slann on his own is fine, he's probably even about the right cost given that he is simply a level 4 with slightly beefier physical stats than normal (75 pts for a 4++, 2 extra wounds and 1pt of Ld over an Empire wizard lord seems a about right if you assume the 4++ is worth 45, leaving you 30pts to account for the stat increases).

The problem is disciplines, blanket pricing them all at 50pts was a stroke of idiocy worthy of the utmost respect particularly that he gets his first one free. Soul of stone is worth 25-30 at the outside, but rumination is probably worth nearer 100 pts. Costing the disciplines more carefully would go a long way towards sorting out the slann problem. In addition either lose cupped hands entirely or change it so it just ignores the miscast and doesn't bounce it back to an enemy wizard.

I like the LM list as it is, maybe something needs to be done to curb salamanders slightly, I'd rather they didn't just hike the pts cost up, but I can't think of an easily implementable alternative to reduce their effectiveness. They really, really need to fix Saurus cavalry, they have been junk units for two and a half editions and it really is time they actually made them viable. I don't know what to do with them other than reduce the pts cost, Low Int cavalry just doesnt fit well into how the 8th Ed game works and saurus cav generally get pulled down before they get to strike.

Stegs are fine, they just need to be a bit cheaper.

As for new stuff, I think there is a huge gap for a new monstrous cavalry dino rider unit, something in between the cold ones and the carnosaur in size ridden by veteran saurus warriors

[innerwolf]

Im not sure how you came to this conclusion. The slann at base cost with no upgrades is already better than all other LVL4's in the game.

Read Spiney Norman's post to see my reasoning behind it (but note that the Slann is WS2, so it's at -1 WS compared to an Empire Wizard Lord)

[MOMUS]

The Slann needs rebalancing. In actual fact the Slann on his own is fine, he's probably even about the right cost given that he is simply a level 4 with slightly beefier physical stats than normal (75 pts for a 4++, 2 extra wounds and 1pt of Ld over an Empire wizard lord seems a about right if you assume the 4++ is worth 45, leaving you 30pts to account for the stat increases).

Hmmm, no.

+30pts for 2 wounds and an extra pip of Ld for a start is an absurd costing. But then you forget he also has a discipline built in for free so thats at least +50pts and he is cold blooded +?pts and he can be the general and BSB at the same time +?pts and his magic item allowance is seperate from his magic banner allowance +?pts. He can shoot magic missiles through a hero class caster +?pts his extra rules regarding temple guard could also be worth increase in points relative to other LVL 4's, how much would you pay to hide a high elf mage in the second rank of spearmen and make them stubborn/immune to psych?

[BooMeRLiNSKi]

Read Spiney Norman's post to see my reasoning behind it (but note that the Slann is WS2, so it's at -1 WS compared to an Empire Wizard Lord)

You should really provide your own arguments but...

"75 pts for a 4++, 2 extra wounds and 1pt of Ld over an Empire wizard lord seems a about right if you assume the 4++ is worth 45, leaving you 30pts to account for the stat increases"

That's quite some assumption considering Curse of the Revenant adds +1 wound and costs 55 points! Additionally +1 leadership is a very big thing on a model that can sit off the front rank and act as a BSB, never mind cold blooded and large target LoS. Oh and that -1 point of WS is totally trivial as they will both be hit on 3's by the vast majority of things that are a threat and the Slann wont be able to be targeted anyway.

In summary, that reasoning is pretty laughable.

[innerwolf]

Hmmm, no.

+30pts for 2 wounds and an extra pip of Ld for a start is an absurd costing. But then you forget he also has a discipline built in for free so thats at least +50pts and he is cold blooded +?pts and he can be the general and BSB at the same time +?pts and his magic item allowance is seperate from his magic banner allowance +?pts. He can shoot magic missiles through a hero class caster +?pts his extra rules regarding temple guard could also be worth increase in points relative to other LVL 4's, how much would you pay to hide a high elf mage in the second rank of spearmen and make them stubborn/immune to psych?

In my opinion it doesn't work like that. The extra leadership cancels itself with -1WS. The free discipline has already been considered OP and needed to be changed both by me and Spiney. Cold blooded comes with the non explicit handicap of Initiative 2 (I think it was the designer's intent). Shooting magic missiles through a Skink priest is rarely useful (the Slann gets good LoS anyway do to being big) and requires purchasing an arguably not very useful caster. The special interaction with Temple Guard could very well be already integrated on the TG cost.

The only point of contention I accept is the Slann being General and BSB at the same time. I think it's very difficult to give a points value to it.

It seems like it's a case of seeing the glass half full or half empty (Spiney and I vs you).
Everything taken into account, I wouldn't be upset if the Slann was costed 20-25 points more, but I don't think it's really necessary.

You should really provide your own arguments but...

"75 pts for a 4++, 2 extra wounds and 1pt of Ld over an Empire wizard lord seems a about right if you assume the 4++ is worth 45, leaving you 30pts to account for the stat increases"

That's quite some assumption considering Curse of the Revenant adds +1 wound and costs 55 points! Additionally +1 leadership is a very big thing on a model that can sit off the front rank and act as a BSB, never mind cold blooded and large target LoS. Oh and that -1 point of WS is totally trivial as they will both be hit on 3's by the vast majority of things that are a threat and the Slann wont be able to be targeted anyway.

In summary, that reasoning is pretty laughable.

Maybe you want me to repeat every point made by Spiney Norman, when we have exactly the same arguments on that topic. I thought saving space on a forum was a good thing, mind you...

You seems to forget a Slann is Initiative 2, and is tremendously vulnerable to Purple Sun, Pit of Shades, Pendulum and Skaven Initiative shenaningans. Oh, and large target LoS as you call it has no meaning at all in 8th edition.

[N0th1ng c4n b34t 3lv3s]

The Slann should at minmum go up 100pts in its base cost...

[innerwolf]

The Slann should at minmum go up 100pts in its base cost...

Please give us arguments (or at the very least quote someone else's). It sounds pretty outrageous to me.

Are you a Lizardmen player, by chance?

[N0th1ng c4n b34t 3lv3s]

Lets compare it to the Wizard lord from empire for example. at lvl.4 both options cost 200pts & for 75 you get +2 wounds, -1 ws, Ld9 (in a freaking cold blooded army) & I2, only that is worth its weight more over 100pts, heck just the wounds are worth 100pts. Yes I'm a Lizardmen player, but I just own 1000pts worth of models.

[MOMUS]

The extra leadership cancels itself with -1WS..

I dont follow your logic, I think the vast majority of empire* players would pay points to have an extra pip of Ld on a wizard lord even if it meant a reduction in WS. Its not as if you want your LVL4 general to get into combat.

Cold blooded comes with the non explicit handicap of Initiative 1 (I think it was the designer's intent)..

Again, how is this a handicap for a model that you dont want to get into combat, that probably wont ever get into combat as it can sit in its perfectly designed bunker dishing out Ld9/10 on three dice with a re roll.

Shooting magic missiles through a Skink priest is rarely useful (the Slann gets good LoS anyway do to being big) and requires purchasing an arguably not very useful caster..

Most armies take a scroll caddy, this ability has just made the scroll caddy even better.

The only point of contention I accept is the Slann being General and BSB at the same time. I think it's very difficult to give a points value to it .

Which is why i ask you how much would you pay for it? How much would you pay for a BSB in another army to not only be able to take a magic anner but have the same point allowance in magic items?

You seems to forget a Slann is Initiative one, and is tremendously vulnerable to Purple Sun, Pit of Shades, Pendulum and Skaven Initiative shenaningans. Oh, and large target LoS as you call it has no meaning at all in 8th edition.

Thats not really that bad, i could just as easily argue that alot of slann take the lore of light so wont be too woried about your Initiative tests. The difference is a slann is more likely to get the spells off (+1power die) and the opponent is not (cogitation). Pendulum is a template so everyone gets LoS from it.


*Using empire as an example as you did in previous post.

[Malorian]

A stegadon mount for a Slann, sorry but I don't believe in filling a book with pointless combos that no-one in their right mind would ever use, Mazdamundi already has that and I've never seen anyone use him, plus offering it as a generic option would take away from Lord Maz's uniqueness.

I've used it a few times

[Kayosiv]

I've used it a few times

How did he do?

[innerwolf]

Lets compare it to the Wizard lord from empire for example. at lvl.4 both options cost 200pts & for 75 you get +2 wounds, -1 ws, Ld9 (in a freaking cold blooded army) & I2, only that is worth its weight more over 100pts, heck just the wounds are worth 100pts. Yes I'm a Lizardmen player, but I just own 1000pts worth of models.

Let's assume for simplicity shake -1WS and -1Ini balance with +1 LD (take into account Empire can buy a cheap Empire General in addition to the Wizard lord for leadership 9 without all eggs in one basket).
Now 4+ ward is universally 45 points. So the Slann already costs 245 points. How many points should a WS2, T4 wound should cost? I don't know, but pretty surely not the 55 points a WS 7 T5 wounds cost for a Vampire Lord. Let's say 40 points, 80 for two of them. That's a total of 325 points. Quite far from the 100 extra points you said the Slann should cost, right?

Thats not really that bad, i could just as easily argue that alot of slann take the lore of light so wont be too woried about your Initiative tests. The difference is a slann is more likely to get the spells of (+1power die) and the opponent is not (cogitation). Pendulum is a template so everyone gets LoS from it.

Don't roll Discipline benefits into a basic Slann (we have already said the free Discipline must go). Assuming Light's initiative buff has been cast is a bit weird, too.
You are right about Pendulum, I had forgot the Slann count as Infantry despite his huge size so he gets LoS.

[The Low King]

My Veiw:

Slan are underpriced. For what they get they are VERY good, paticularly with the disciplines. A level 4, 4+ ward, 2 extra wounds, Can be a general and BSB, extra Leadership, easy access to disciplines is easily worth 300+ points (i would say 350, depending on the discipline cost)
They need a price hike, and a cost per upgrade. Cupped hands is ok, effectively ignoring the first miscast is quite a nifty item. But it need to be specified that you pass it on before you roll for the miscast.

Old bloods (and scarvets) are fine, they are one of the most powerful combat characters out there. With 5 attacks, S5 and T5 they are really tough. Plus their scaly skin bonus is huge, with just light armour and shield they have a 2+ save....wich is really useful.

Salamanders are too good. They just do too much damage for their cost. A small points increase (100 points each maybe) and/or a removal of the protection the monsters and handlers rule give them would be enough.

I like saurus cav, 2 attacks, S4, T4, 2+ save, ITP.....they are a bit costly, but are better than normal knights. Maybe give them Light armour and do something about the stupidity and they are fine.

Saurus warriors are pretty good, they dont need any changes, nor do temple guard.

Kroxigores being a little cheaper or a little harder to kill would be nice.

Engine of the gods needs to be better, stegadon pinball needs to be fixed. But other than that i really like stegs, they pack a serious punch.

Carnasaurs need to be slightly cheaper or a tad harder to kill. They are really cool and killy but always seem to die too quickly.

[The Low King]

Let's assume for simplicity shake -1WS and -1Ini balance with +1 LD (take into account Empire can buy a cheap Empire General in addition to the Wizard lord for leadership 9 without all eggs in one basket).
Now 4+ ward is universally 45 points. So the Slann already costs 245 points. How many points should a WS2, T4 wound should cost? I don't know, but pretty surely not the 55 points a WS 7 T5 wounds cost for a Vampire Lord. Let's say 40 points, 80 for two of them. That's a total of 325 points. Quite far from the 100 extra points you said the Slann should cost, right?

Empire wizard is the cheapest out there...partly because they are human, and partly because they are in an army that cant compete with the heavy hitters of other armies without buffs of some sort (or warmachines).

Lets say 210 points for the basic statline, exchanging the WS2 for the extra leadership.
45 points for a ward save built in (also means it doesnt count towards the magic item allowance)
Extra 2 wounds...well, magic item wise thats 100 points worth, but lets say an extra 75 points to account for the discount
Free discipline? worth 50 points

Well, at this point we are at 380 points......hey, thats 100 points more
Then we have:
Ability to be the general and BSB and take a magic banner but still take magic items? thats two BRB rules violated...but lets say for free.
Ability to sit in the second rank? thats got to be worth something, it kind of avoids one of the main weaknesses
Ability to use a skink to cast spells?

Oh, and the disciplines themselves....wow....it costs a fair bit to get an item for a one time +d6 to a casting attempt, slan can get it EVERY SPELL.