What would you like to see in the new Lizardmen armybook? (balance and new units)

[Spiney Norman]

And look how that worked out so far, I love my rules that reflect the fluff, that said, I don't want fluff being a excuse to create heavily unbalanced and unfun models to play against, honestly, as GW has shown in the past, fluff can be rewritten so it fits the rules better.

It really is a question of balancing it correctly, the 6th edition Slann was a fluffy choice, more powerful than any other wizard and had a very unique way of selecting spells. It was also massively overpriced at about 600+pts

I would settle for Slann being a L4 with loremaster to represent their much longer study of magic and maybe an option for a toned down version of becalming cogitation (which is a great idea, but a little too powerful at the minute). Making the Slann ethereal for 50pts is a little bit broken as well, and I'm not really sure there is sufficient fluff reason for keeping that one, it seems to me they just chucked it in to make the lone-wolf Slann viable.

[BooMeRLiNSKi]

I know that few of you want to hear this point but "fluff" wise a slann should lol stomp any other wizard.

You're right, I don't want to hear it because it is stupid and untrue. Fluff wise they are up there with High Elf Archmages, Tzeentchian sorcerers and ancient vampires/necromancers.

Right, que some guy mumbling on about "moving continents" and "raising mountains to the ground" from some half remembered (badly written, Mary-Sue) fluff passage referencing Slann generations dead without realising that EVERY book has these bits which tell of how various "characters" fart lightning bolts and level whole armies with one "blue steel" glare.

[logan054]

It really is a question of balancing it correctly, the 6th edition Slann was a fluffy choice, more powerful than any other wizard and had a very unique way of selecting spells. It was also massively overpriced at about 600+pts

You mean the one who could pick and choose his spells , yeah he was a blast to play against, I remember playing against him with a mono Khorne army using the WoC book, that was incredibly fun.

I would settle for Slann being a L4 with loremaster to represent their much longer study of magic and maybe an option for a toned down version of becalming cogitation (which is a great idea, but a little too powerful at the minute). Making the Slann ethereal for 50pts is a little bit broken as well, and I'm not really sure there is sufficient fluff reason for keeping that one, it seems to me they just chucked it in to make the lone-wolf Slann viable.

Becalming cogitation needs to go just as focused rumination does, How would you tone it down, only discard every other 6 rolled? you combine this with cupped hands and your game begins to get very dull very quickly, I don't care what your fluff excuse it, in 8th that combination is far too powerful, even in isolation those abilities/items are far to good, take away ethereal (Well I don't think it grants magical attacks) and what are you left with? Regen? Terror, MR3 and reroll miscasts, basically, the only reason a slann is such a awesome wizard is because of 3 things which are each incredibly unbalanced in 8th, combined are stupid.

focused rumination: How can you change this? you can't have free powerdice for every spell, I guess this leaves you a few options, channel on a 4+, reroll the winds of magic, maybe he steals of a winds of magic dice on a 5/6+

Becalming cogitation: Again how can this be changed into something less silly? maybe roll after a spell is cast, on a 5+ you steal powerdice to use a dispel dice? the mechanic is similar in preventing people from using to many powerdice, it doesn't however cancel spells out, it can just make future casting harder. Another idea is to turn it into a additional spell, drain magic like they use to have, raise the casting values a lot, it does mean atleast you can stop it (I do prefer the first idea)

Cupped hands: maybe it should simply ignore the first miscast, or perhaps we take ideas from the 6th ed book, they use to simply give a 5+ wardsave, what about 5+ regen that can be used in combat (unlike before being a 5+ wardsave that can't be used in combat).

Sorry, but Magic Bunker Lords that sit on their cans are far more boring IMO, at least a Blender Lord has to put himself in harms way to dish out the pain (which indeed he does). My own opponants have made it no secret which they would rather face. If anything Red Fury is fine , promoting combat as it does, fix the ASF rule (NOT Quickblood) if you have a real problem with him and If your Chaos warrior opponant is playing a Warrior Deathstar with 3 characters in it , well cheese deserves cheese so Fury him to death by all means. The Fury Lord is good , yes, but he is 300 - 400+ points depending on kit that you actually have to maneuver into combat and win to get a result out of him, rather than a fat toad blasting units to oblivion from the safety of his bodyguard seems a big difference in risk alone to me.
Nad Im not sure how VC can totally take away your combat phase with generally low WS and Initiative, yes the Vampires are good and Some of the Specials are relativley decent, but the rest tends to range from average to downright poor .

It really is that boring to use, every time i use it the game hinges on how many models the blender lord kills, I really think the problem with it is the lack of actual bloodlines, if it was a blood dragon only ability then I think it would be fine (limiting it to strength 5 with rerolls, extra attacks or what not), but GW seem determined to remove these things from the game. I don't think ASF is that bad, it just with certain things its silly, I was going to say this should have been in play testing but you really don't need to play test it to see how abusive the two are together, it leaps out at you on the page. The combat phase isn't dependent on a single model, I found we have some decent hammer units, Wraiths, blood knights, vargheists, varghulfs (well this thing has many roles which fit different play styles). The core is complete junk but hey its VC, you kind of expect it!

Saurus should be 11 points IMO (they are 12 points right now , right?) The str 2 blowpipes suggestion sounds like a good start to fixing skinks.
Saurus Cavalry are overpriced , but so are most cavalry these days, a point drop would be nice, a real one not a fake "cheaper because hes naked on the back of a horse" price drop that a lot of the cavalry re-writes got.

Thats the kind of thing I expect, simply so people have buy more models.

[Ganymede]

One thing that I would like to see is a reworked lizard pack unit.

For one, I'd like to see the units fielded as a lizard and three handlers all mounted on a single 50x50 or 50x75 base. I think that'd do much to streamline and simplify the rules of the unit.

Secondly, I'd like to see a plastic set that allows one to make either salamanders or razordons. The boxed set could even make a third type of lizard, who knows.

[cosy]

You're right, I don't want to hear it because it is stupid and untrue. Fluff wise they are up there with High Elf Archmages, Tzeentchian sorcerers and ancient vampires/necromancers.

Right, que some guy mumbling on about "moving continents" and "raising mountains to the ground" from some half remembered (badly written, Mary-Sue) fluff passage referencing Slann generations dead without realising that EVERY book has these bits which tell of how various "characters" fart lightning bolts and level whole armies with one "blue steel" glare.

It's not stupid and it's not untrue. Slann ARE the most powerfull wizards in Warhammer. This has always been the case, why argue? Only Daemon Lords (including Vermin Lords), Elven special characters and Nagash should be considered almost equals. Almost.

However fluff and game mechanics are two different things. I'm very curious how they are gonna make them cost-effective without taking away the joy of the game (like Teclis for the moment).

As long as Kroak is the most powerfull wizard in the game, i'm happy. With Mazdamundi on par with Kairos magic-wise.

[Spiney Norman]

You mean the one who could pick and choose his spells , yeah he was a blast to play against, I remember playing against him with a mono Khorne army using the WoC book, that was incredibly fun.



Becalming cogitation needs to go just as focused rumination does, How would you tone it down, only discard every other 6 rolled? you combine this with cupped hands and your game begins to get very dull very quickly, I don't care what your fluff excuse it, in 8th that combination is far too powerful, even in isolation those abilities/items are far to good, take away ethereal (Well I don't think it grants magical attacks) and what are you left with? Regen? Terror, MR3 and reroll miscasts, basically, the only reason a slann is such a awesome wizard is because of 3 things which are each incredibly unbalanced in 8th, combined are stupid.

Becalming cogitation: Again how can this be changed into something less silly? maybe roll after a spell is cast, on a 5+ you steal powerdice to use a dispel dice? the mechanic is similar in preventing people from using to many powerdice, it doesn't however cancel spells out, it can just make future casting harder. Another idea is to turn it into a additional spell, drain magic like they use to have, raise the casting values a lot, it does mean atleast you can stop it (I do prefer the first idea)

Thats the kind of thing I expect, simply so people have buy more models.

The 6th edition Slann could NOT pick and choose his spells, he had to roll for his spells as normal, but he was permitted to use more than one lore of magic, so for example he could roll 2 spells on fire, one on death and two on life (he had 5 picks as I recall, or maybe that was a magic item). I invariably found that it was still better to roll all your spells on the same lore as it gave you a much higher chance of getting some stronger spells, either that of you could go for the magic missile battery Slann by rolling once on every lore that had a MM as its 1st spell (which was about half of the brb lores in 6th).

With becalming cogitation the idea is that it reduces the power of enemy magic, there are sveral ways it could be changed to operate in a less OP way, for example it could work as simply as -2 to all spells cast from the lore of (LM players choice) per turn, or it could just remove a set number of dice from the opponents power pool each turn (say 1 or 2, certainly no more than D3).

[BooMeRLiNSKi]

It's not stupid and it's not untrue. Slann ARE the most powerfull wizards in Warhammer. This has always been the case, why argue?

Was it the case before Lizardmen existed as an army? Because I'm familiar with all the fluff since I started with GW products in the mid 80's...

Only Daemon Lords (including Vermin Lords), Elven special characters and Nagash should be considered almost equals. Almost.

Nagash is more powerful than any living Slann.

The Slann we see on the battlefield are 5th generation Slann, very very powerful magic users. There may not be any more powerful magic users, but there are those as powerful and they certainly don't "lolstomp" any other wizard.

[DaemonReign]

I don't necessarily Think that the Magic Phase of 8th lends itself well to any one race having supremacy, but if we are to talk about fluff the Tzeentch Daemons should definately Tower over everybody.
The Slann were created by the Old Ones, but they are not gods themselves, they are not magic taking physical form as raw manifestations. Them and High Elves and to some extent Vampires.. Any race that has millennia to perfect their skills really. All deserving of "Loremasters" and powerfull magic gadgets. No argument there.

Tzeentch Daemons would stand apart from all that though. And again: I'm not saying it's actually desirable because we all know how Horrors broke the 7th Ed Magic Phase. But yeah.. if we are to be strictly background oriented then there's no Contest.

[BooMeRLiNSKi]

I don't necessarily Think that the Magic Phase of 8th lends itself well to any one race having supremacy, but if we are to talk about fluff the Tzeentch Daemons should definately Tower over everybody.
The Slann were created by the Old Ones, but they are not gods themselves, they are not magic taking physical form as raw manifestations. Them and High Elves and to some extent Vampires.. Any race that has millennia to perfect their skills really. All deserving of "Loremasters" and powerfull magic gadgets. No argument there.

Tzeentch Daemons would stand apart from all that though. And again: I'm not saying it's actually desirable because we all know how Horrors broke the 7th Ed Magic Phase. But yeah.. if we are to be strictly background oriented then there's no Contest.

Nope, there is plenty to argue you're wrong. In fact there's so much I can't be bothered to start.

All the top magic users sit on pretty much the same level, if you don't see this look to your bias, the end.

[Morax]

The problem with Slann is the combinations of things in the BRB with it's current rule set that break the game. Becalming, Ethereal, Focused, cupped hands, all of them on their own are fine and dandy. Combined with the brb they break the game so it is no longer fun and no longer playable for 25% of the game. The game needs to not be broken.

Simple fixes...
Ethereal Slann - You are not allowed to buy magic items and you lose your innate 4++. Done. You can no longer have a stubborn, leadership 10, cold blooded, ethereal creature with a 4++ and a reroll to break tests. I've seen it done and it breaks the game like no other.

Becalming - -2 to cast if within 24" of the Slann. Sure it steals a bit from the corpse cart, but that is exactly why it works. It's a play tested principle and it has a sizable effect on the game.

Focused - Add 2 power dice to your magic phase. You are still capped at 12 but now your averages for magic phases are much higher and the balance between power to dispell dice are hugely in your favor. You'll wind up with an extrememly strong magic phase that is more in tune with 8th. (Yes I know that the High Elves would have a stronger magic phase but tough. That needs to be redone too as we all know.)

Cupped Hands - Delete the item. It doesn't need to be there, isn't all that fluffy, and is OP for its already high point cost. With the reduction of every army's magical item selection, it really isn't all that out of the ordinary to delete items like this either.

That would fix the most broken parts of a Slann while keeping it a much stronger caster than an empire wizard lord.

As to it's base point cost, we all agree it is way too cheap at the moment. Most of us agree that it should pay for any of its caster upgrades, not get one for free. There are a few points of contention that some people are missing a few things on.

+2 wounds - Wounds on a character have a varying value due to the nature of the character. You can not just port over a point value from one book to another. +1 wound is not worth the same to a character that has toughness 5 and can get loads of wounds back, versus a character that has a lower toughness and can't wear armor. That said, Slann should have a higher than normal value for that +1 wound as well as vampires. The ability to only be wounded by magical attacks makes that +1 wound extremely good, add in that the character has a 4++ from a source that is not the talisman of preservation and it gets even better. 110 points for +2 wounds isn't that far fetched on such a model but yes it should be something like 80-100.

+1 Leadership - This is a huge boon that is easily understated, particularly on a caster. Game design for almost all the other armies has the highest leadership in the army on a non caster model on purpose. Getting that on a caster model should come at a premium. Getting it on a caster model that is also a BSB should come at an extreme premium. I'd value it at +20 points for the model, then I'd change the cost for making the Slann the BSB to 50 points. It's easily worth double on a model with 5 wounds, built in 4++ and can sit in the rear with the gear and retain all of its effectiveness.

BSB - The real trouble with this is that you still get to pick magical items if you take a magical banner. That just needs to change to comply with the way BSB's work in other lists. The above points change would solve the rest.

-1 initiative - This really isn't a downside worth mentioning. Sure he can be running around on his own, but when you do that he is almost unkillable anyway. Yes he is made a bit more suseptible to Pit and Purple Sun, but he is designed to be in a unit any way, a unit that he shares a unit type with. Against both of those spells he would get a 2+ LoS roll any way, the likeliness that he actually has to take the hit on the chin are low as it is. I'd give you maybe a 5 point reduction in points for this, if that.

lower weaponskill - See initiative for the same reasons it's not a downside.

Slann ought to cost somewhere in the neighborhood of 350 points with no upgrades at all. BSB brings him to 400, then you get your caster upgrades at 50 points a piece and yeah it starts really racking up, just like it should. He'd still be playable, and he'd still be one of the most powerful casters on the table. You would have to make some hard choices about just howmany points you want to spend on him though.

[Spiney Norman]

Was it the case before Lizardmen existed as an army? Because I'm familiar with all the fluff since I started with GW products in the mid 80's...



Nagash is more powerful than any living Slann.

The Slann we see on the battlefield are 5th generation Slann, very very powerful magic users. There may not be any more powerful magic users, but there are those as powerful and they certainly don't "lolstomp" any other wizard.

There is possibly a reason why Nagash is no longer a playable character, we know he's the archetype for uber-powerful evil wizard, I would guess that the reason he's not playable any more is because there would be no way to accurately represent him without destroying the magic system.

Slann should be markedly more powerful than the run of the Mill wizards of other races, we're talking about a race that is at least as far above high elves as they are above humans, even Teclis should be outclassed by pretty much any Slann.

I'm also not sure about Tzeentch daemons, the Slann were taught by the creators of the world, ie the gods who invented magic, there's a good chance they knew the most about how it worked. While the daemons of Tzeentch are no doubt powerful I would guess that Tzeentch himself keeps them on a fairly tight leash, no self respecting chaos god would give their daemons enough power to overthrow them, plus the Lizardmen background features many stories of individual Slann holding back, and in some cases even defeating entire daemonic legions with their magic, I think it's fair to say their more than a match for your average Lord of change.

[DaemonReign]

Nope, there is plenty to argue you're wrong. In fact there's so much I can't be bothered to start.

All the top magic users sit on pretty much the same level, if you don't see this look to your bias, the end.

Awesome Warseer behavior there buddy.

[innerwolf]

Simple fixes...
Ethereal Slann - You are not allowed to buy magic items and you lose your innate 4++. Done. You can no longer have a stubborn, leadership 10, cold blooded, ethereal creature with a 4++ and a reroll to break tests. I've seen it done and it breaks the game like no other.

Becalming - -2 to cast if within 24" of the Slann. Sure it steals a bit from the corpse cart, but that is exactly why it works. It's a play tested principle and it has a sizable effect on the game.

Focused - Add 2 power dice to your magic phase. You are still capped at 12 but now your averages for magic phases are much higher and the balance between power to dispell dice are hugely in your favor. You'll wind up with an extrememly strong magic phase that is more in tune with 8th. (Yes I know that the High Elves would have a stronger magic phase but tough. That needs to be redone too as we all know.)

Cupped Hands - Delete the item. It doesn't need to be there, isn't all that fluffy, and is OP for its already high point cost. With the reduction of every army's magical item selection, it really isn't all that out of the ordinary to delete items like this either.

That would fix the most broken parts of a Slann while keeping it a much stronger caster than an empire wizard lord.

Some good ideas you got there.

As to it's base point cost, we all agree it is way too cheap at the moment. Most of us agree that it should pay for any of its caster upgrades, not get one for free. There are a few points of contention that some people are missing a few things on.

+2 wounds - Wounds on a character have a varying value due to the nature of the character. You can not just port over a point value from one book to another. +1 wound is not worth the same to a character that has toughness 5 and can get loads of wounds back, versus a character that has a lower toughness and can't wear armor. That said, Slann should have a higher than normal value for that +1 wound as well as vampires. The ability to only be wounded by magical attacks makes that +1 wound extremely good, add in that the character has a 4++ from a source that is not the talisman of preservation and it gets even better. 110 points for +2 wounds isn't that far fetched on such a model but yes it should be something like 80-100.

So a Slann who doesn't pick Ethereal must pay for an advantage he doesn't get? And what relevance has the source of a ward save in it's value?

+1 Leadership - This is a huge boon that is easily understated, particularly on a caster. Game design for almost all the other armies has the highest leadership in the army on a non caster model on purpose. Getting that on a caster model should come at a premium. Getting it on a caster model that is also a BSB should come at an extreme premium. I'd value it at +20 points for the model, then I'd change the cost for making the Slann the BSB to 50 points. It's easily worth double on a model with 5 wounds, built in 4++ and can sit in the rear with the gear and retain all of its effectiveness.

I can't see why should they pay premium twice. +20 points base OR 50 points for the BSB would make sense. You can get a BSB on a OK Bruiser with a 4+ ward and he still pays 25 points. You are overdoing it.

-1 initiative - This really isn't a downside worth mentioning. Sure he can be running around on his own, but when you do that he is almost unkillable anyway. Yes he is made a bit more suseptible to Pit and Purple Sun, but he is designed to be in a unit any way, a unit that he shares a unit type with. Against both of those spells he would get a 2+ LoS roll any way, the likeliness that he actually has to take the hit on the chin are low as it is. I'd give you maybe a 5 point reduction in points for this, if that.

lower weaponskill - See initiative for the same reasons it's not a downside.

Pretty biased, aren't you? So the Slann strengths are extremely undercosted, but his weaknesses are trivial?

Slann ought to cost somewhere in the neighborhood of 350 points with no upgrades at all. BSB brings him to 400, then you get your caster upgrades at 50 points a piece and yeah it starts really racking up, just like it should. He'd still be playable, and he'd still be one of the most powerful casters on the table. You would have to make some hard choices about just howmany points you want to spend on him though.

Those numbers sound pretty hard to me, but I can't say if they would be playable or not without playtesting.

Do you know what? I think what GW should get rid off is the "goes to the second rank of temple guard" rule. Then everyone would stop saying: "every bad thing about the Slann means nothing as he goes second rank".

[Morax]

The relevance of the source of the ward save is that it leaves the standard 4++ available to take elsewhere. When ward saves are hard to come by, thats a clear advantage. He pays that premium twice for that leadership bonus because he has two premium special rules that make it better. Cold blooded and BSB. I didn't even add in the fact that he is a caster general as that is much arder to quantify.

Do you know what? I think what GW should get rid off is the "goes to the second rank of temple guard" rule. Then everyone would stop saying: "every bad thing about the Slann means nothing as he goes second rank".

I think this is a great idea. It would certainly make Slann harder to keep out of the fray and I would give them a points reduction because of it. Something along the lines of 30-40 points.

[Moss]

And what relevance has the source of a ward save in it's value?

It leaves his Talisman slot open and allows another character to take the Talisman of Preservation.

I think this is a great idea. It would certainly make Slann harder to keep out of the fray and I would give them a points reduction because of it. Something along the lines of 30-40 points.

Bunkering a Slann in a TG unit would make the unit much less effective. Yes, they are ITP and stubborn and all that good stuff, but having a Slann in the front rank reduces the unit's attacks by six. That's huge.

[The Low King]

Personally, i would make Slan more expensive and more reliable. Maybe make them count as level 5 wizards, though that seems a bit too much like stealing the Arkan thing. Having them not able to Miscast but also not able to IF would be cool and fluffy, slan should not be miscasting.

I don't necessarily Think that the Magic Phase of 8th lends itself well to any one race having supremacy, but if we are to talk about fluff the Tzeentch Daemons should definately Tower over everybody..

Why? Ok, they are powerful, but what in their fluff makes them that powerful?

The Slann were created by the Old Ones, but they are not gods themselves, they are not magic taking physical form as raw manifestations. Them and High Elves and to some extent Vampires.. Any race that has millennia to perfect their skills really. All deserving of "Loremasters" and powerfull magic gadgets. No argument there..

Elves live for a couple of thousand years dont they? The very oldest vampires are 4000 years old (when they were created in Lahmia). Nagash himself is only 4500 years old. The youngest Slan is over 8000 years old.

Tzeentch Daemons would stand apart from all that though. And again: I'm not saying it's actually desirable because we all know how Horrors broke the 7th Ed Magic Phase. But yeah.. if we are to be strictly background oriented then there's no Contest.

I agree that Tzeentch daemons would be powerful, but what in their fluff has them more powerful than slan?

Nagash is more powerful than any living Slann.
.

To compare two of the most powerful Wizards in the fluff: Nagash and Lord Kroak. Both are dead but have spirits that still influence the world.
One was killed by a man, twice (one of them became a god soon ater though). To kill the other it took a dozen greater daemons and an entire army.
Ones greatest work was to fail to resurect all of the dead in the world, having to use vast amounts of warpstone to do so. The other destroyed millions of daemons.

The greatest living slan is lord mazdamundi, he raised a mountain range to stop an army.

The Slann we see on the battlefield are 5th generation Slann, very very powerful magic users. There may not be any more powerful magic users, but there are those as powerful and they certainly don't "lolstomp" any other wizard.

Not all of them. It only says the 5th generation ones are more inclined to lead armies, lord mazdamundi is second generation.

[Kayosiv]

Nagash is more powerful than any living Slann.

The Slann we see on the battlefield are 5th generation Slann, very very powerful magic users. There may not be any more powerful magic users, but there are those as powerful and they certainly don't "lolstomp" any other wizard.

Most of them are 5th generation because these are generally the most active and are the most numerous. Mazdamundi is specifically stated to be a 2nd generation slann, while Lord Kroak is a 1st generation, he is notably the first of the 1st generation, special among even the now extinct supremely powerful 1st generation mage-priests.

Also of note, Nagash was potentially as powerful or even more powerful than the mage-priests, but those days are long over. He may be on the rise back to power, but he is a withered husk of his former self.

[StygianBeach]

also I just want a huge plastic carnosaur kit to buy

Yep!
Kroxigors riding Canosaurs Monstrous Cavalry.... I will be surprised if GW dont do it.
Of course the Carnosaur mount for the characters would require a name change to King Carnosaur, but that is easy stuff.

[innerwolf]

Yep!
Kroxigors riding Canosaurs Monstrous Cavalry.... I will be surprised if GW dont do it.
Of course the Carnosaur mount for the characters would require a name change to King Carnosaur, but that is easy stuff.

Can Skink Chiefs ride the kroxigors riding Carnosaurs? Dinoception style?

[Lord Zarkov]

Also of note, Nagash was potentially as powerful or even more powerful than the mage-priests, but those days are long over. He may be on the rise back to power, but he is a withered husk of his former self.

Nagash cast the most powerful spell ever cast, but wasn't necessarily the most powerful wizard ever - that spell took a lot of preparation, had to be cast on a specific night, took a lot out of him, and according to Nagash Immortal required a very specific focus - in short it was a one off event, it's in no way certain he'd've been able to do the same thing again, even if he hadn't lost a lot of power when he died. Now however he's a shadow of his former self, so not anywhere near early gen Slann level, but probably still the greatest former human Wizard around.

The 2nd Gen Slaan however were presumably originally required to do their continent moving on a more regular basis and without vast consumption of warpstone and copious living sacrifices.