Can a Hellcannon pivot before firing?

[Lord Inquisitor]

Quick and perhaps seemingly obvious question here.

Can a hellcannon pivot before firing? This question can be phrased more generally, can a non-war machine unit that fires like a war machine (cygor, ironblaster, thundertusk, stank) pivot before firing?

[AntaresCD]

Seems to depend on the wording for the non-warmachine in question's rules. There is a lot of debate and some are in the grey since there isn't anything explicit. Hell, people can't agree if a warmachine's target need to already be in it's front arc to be elligible to be a target before it pivots and shoots...

I don't have the Hellfire cannon's rules in front of me, though, so I can't say much more. I do remember seeing a long thread on this though a few months back...

[Durpp]

Nope. It fires like a stone thrower, but does not gain the free pivot like a stone thrower.
Deploy it well my friend!

[Lord Inquisitor]

AntaresCD, the wording is simply "The Hellcannon fires as a stone thrower" with some additional rules.

Durpp (and anyone else saying "no"), a further question: where can the target point be (only directly ahead, anywhere in front arc, anywhere in LOS, etc)?

[Kayosiv]

Stone throwers can fire anywhere within their line of sight (that is outside their minimum range and inside their maximum. So the hellcannon can definitely fire anywhere it can see.

There are 2 trains of thought on whether it can pivot.

1. It cannot pivot for free because the hellcannon is not a war machine. War machines get a free pivot before firing but monsters do not. Being a monster allows the hellcannon to march and charge etc and do things that a war machine cannot do.

2. Under the rules for war machines, it says "before you fire the war machine, pivot it to face your chosen target (this doesn't count as moving). This rule only applies to war machines but it specifically is about how war machines fire and the hellcannon "fires like a stonethrower" as per its own rules.

I'm in the camp that would allow the hellcannon to pivot, but not be able to fire at things outside it's line of sight front arc in the shooting phase.

[Warrior of Chaos]

My thoughts.

1. Not a war machine: so no pivot.
2. Resolves shots taken as a stone thrower (targets would have to be in the front arc due to the lack of a pivot - no line of sight needed). You could fire indirectly just as you could with a regular stone thrower.

[Durpp]

AntaresCD, the wording is simply "The Hellcannon fires as a stone thrower" with some additional rules.

Durpp (and anyone else saying "no"), a further question: where can the target point be (only directly ahead, anywhere in front arc, anywhere in LOS, etc)?

The way my group and I decided on it was that it had to be in the forward arc, but doesn't have to be LOS(because of indirect fire for a stone thrower, not in general.)

[Bitten Black Sheep]

I have been playing Warhammer since 4th edition. Whilst I can see that the language is a bit sloppy, I cannot see anything that fundamentally changes the rules from previous editions. I even looked them up for fun
4th - "Pivot the stone thrower on the spot so it is pointing in the direction you want to shoot."
6th - "Pivot the stone thrower on the spot so it is pointing in the direction you want to shoot."
8th - "...before you fire the war machine, pivot it to face your chosen target...." page 109.
The hellcannon "fires like a stone thrower" pg 66 WoC book, and the FAQ confirms it cannot move and shoot.

We all play that the hellcannon pivots up to 360 to line up on its target and lets rip.
As far as I'm aware this interpretation hasn't been challenged in this country.

[ElBeaver]

Quick and perhaps seemingly obvious question here.

Can a hellcannon pivot before firing? This question can be phrased more generally, can a non-war machine unit that fires like a war machine (cygor, ironblaster, thundertusk, stank) pivot before firing?

This is one of these times where you have to simply use common sense. Why, in the first place, should a warmachine pivot before firing at its target? Because most warmachines fire directly forward, hence they should face their target before they fire for "realism". Given the specific case, a Hellcanon is a stonethrower with a magical component, hence it may be able to do a curve shot (everyone knows that only Angelina can do that), but I would argue it does not. It still fires directly forward and should be pivoted, even though it is not technically a warmachine.
I haven't got the empire armybook, but my guess is that the steamtank does not have to pivot before firing because its small canon can turn in place (tanks in WW2 had to turn to fire their big fron canon, but side canons could turn in place afaik). Getting off topic...

[Mid'ean]

"Fires like" does not give you permission to not follow other rules unless stated so. And none of the units stated above have that in their rules. War machines can pivot and fire. Non war machines unit types can not. Whether it's a giant cannon, over sized pea shooter, or a big ugly shooting giant snowballs/ throwing rocks. It's that simple.

[The Low King]

If the target is out of line of sight you can indirect fire anyway.

[Quinzy]

"Fires like" does not give you permission to not follow other rules unless stated so. And none of the units stated above have that in their rules. War machines can pivot and fire. Non war machines unit types can not. Whether it's a giant cannon, over sized pea shooter, or a big ugly shooting giant snowballs/ throwing rocks. It's that simple.

Except it states that when it shoots, it shoots like a war machine. So it shoots like a war machine in every way, including pivoting. Having Monstrous Beast rules does not give it permission to not follow the war machine rules when you are directed to do so.

[nurgle5]

The hellcannon "fires like a stone thrower" pg 66 WoC book, and the FAQ confirms it cannot move and shoot.

According to the BRB the pivot doesn't count as movement.

[Durpp]

Only for war machines though I'm pretty sure.
And doesn't it say the machine can fire within its LOS, and its LOS being the barrel/crossbar? (Don't have my BRB in front of me at the moment.)

Also, the Stank for Emp can only shoot its steam cannon directly forward. Shoot, getting off topic, Gah!

[Kalandros]

Only for war machines though I'm pretty sure.
And doesn't it say the machine can fire within its LOS, and its LOS being the barrel/crossbar? (Don't have my BRB in front of me at the moment.)

Also, the Stank for Emp can only shoot its steam cannon directly forward. Shoot, getting off topic, Gah!

Because its rules clearly state so

[hamsterwheel]

I personally play it that it cannot pivot and shoot so placement becomes very important and so does making the leadership check at the beginning of the turn as rushing forward will remove even more targets unless I spend another turn moving it back into position, but this also means that anything that specifically mentions war machines within it's rules doesn't include the hell cannon. An example would be that item that gives you a 6+ ward save against war machines.

[Djekar]

I was in the "yes it can" camp until about 6 months ago, and then something opened my eyes and caused me to firmly re-align myself in the "no it cannot" camp. I suppose this is the part where I should be remembering what that was...

[nurgle5]

I was in the "yes it can" camp until about 6 months ago, and then something opened my eyes and caused me to firmly re-align myself in the "no it cannot" camp. I suppose this is the part where I should be remembering what that was...

Might be helpful if you could remember!

The pivot is in the paragraph "shooting with war machines", it's described as part of the process of firing a warmachine. If the hellcannon says it shoots as a stone thrower, I see no good reason to not follow those rules, especially as there is nothing in the rules saying not to follow the usual rules for firing a stone thrower. I see no rules saying "it shoots like a stone thrower, but...". The FAQ says the hellcannon cannot move and fire, but the pivot is doesn't count as movement as per the rules.

[Warrior of Chaos]

I think it is important to remember that "fires/shoots as a stone thrower" does not make it a stone thrower. The Hellcannon is a "Monster" for troop type. It gets all the benefits of being a "Monster" and should not gain additional perks for being a "war machine" as well. The free pivot that war machines get is a subtle but IMPORTANT variable that should not be default be slapped on an already good unit. The same would go for a unit such as the Cygor. The loss of a free pivot makes it necessary to pay attention with how you are using the Hellcannon monster if you want to gain the benefit of its shooting attack.

[ElBeaver]

This discussion is honestly absurd. People try and interpret the rules in the strictest possible way instead of using the thing on top of their neck. Obviously it pivots as it fires straight forward (the reason for the pivot in the first place) - if it didn't it would have to curve the shot.
The hellcanon cannot for example "move and shoot" as warmachines normally cannot. It is a monster but cannot make a thunderstomp attack. When shooting at the hellcanon shots are divided as they normally would against a warmachine. If the Hellcanon shoots against a target with a special (ward)-save against warmachines that obviouslly applies. Etc. - it is both a monster and a warmachine, and should quite possibly have been labelled "unique", something we can all hope will be corrected in the soon to come armybook.