Can a Hellcannon pivot before firing?

[The Low King]

On page 39 section 2: choosing a target.

Those arnt the rules for warmachines.

[ElBeaver]

are we all playing the same game????

[Last Edition]

Well spotted, but it is the rules for shooting and War Machines shoot. War Machines have no rules which allow them to ignore all shooting rules starting on page 38, they just have additional shooting rules. Rules for a unit type does not supersede the rules for shooting if that unit type wants to shoot. Its like saying: I have an infantry model with a bow with some unique shooting rules, does this allow me to ignore all shooting rules not mentioned in my bows' description?

[The Low King]

Well spotted, but it is the rules for shooting and War Machines shoot. War Machines have no rules which allow them to ignore all shooting rules starting on page 38, they just have additional shooting rules. Rules for a unit type does not supersede the rules for shooting if that unit type wants to shoot. Its like saying: I have an infantry model with a bow with some unique shooting rules, does this allow me to ignore all shooting rules not mentioned in my bows' description?

Great point, unfortunatly you missed a rather key bit:

"This section covers the shooting rules for common weapons and the majority of troop types. War machines and other, more peculiar, devices of destruction are covered in their own chapter (begining on page 108)"

Seems rather clear to me.

[Last Edition]

You should finish that quote with the entire paragraph...

[The Low King]

"However, even the collosal trebuchet is governed by many of the same rules as the humble bow and arrow, so its worth reading through this section before unlimbering your cannon or organ gun"

So? all it is saying is that some rules are similar.

Rules that the warmachine section uses that are also in the shooting section:
-Maximum and minimum ranges
-Shooting into combat
-To hit penalties (for bolt throwers)
-Panic from casulaties
-Hits inflicting multiple wounds
-Wound distribution

All those are specified and explained in the warmachine section but also explained in more detail in the shooting section. That is all it is refering to.

[Last Edition]

"However, even the collosal trebuchet is governed by many of the same rules as the humble bow and arrow, so its worth reading through this section before unlimbering your cannon or organ gun"

So? all it is saying is that some rules are similar.

Rules that the warmachine section uses that are also in the shooting section:
-Maximum and minimum ranges
-Shooting into combat
-To hit penalties (for bolt throwers) But for Grapeshot. Do you not suffer any modifiers for shooting units out of short range, behind cover, etc?
-Panic from casulaties. Not covered in War Machine section.
-Hits inflicting multiple wounds
-Wound distribution

All those are specified and explained in the warmachine section but also explained in more detail in the shooting section. That is all it is refering to.

War Machines follow, and are still bound by normal shooting rules, if not mentioned in their special rules. Otherwise, War Machines would not need special rules like Slow to Fire, because nowhere in the war machine section does it say they can stand and shoot.

[The Low King]

War Machines follow, and are still bound by normal shooting rules, if not mentioned in their special rules.
.

Why are you ignoring the passage that says they specifically do not follow the same rules?

Otherwise, War Machines would not need special rules like Slow to Fire, because nowhere in the war machine section does it say they can stand and shoot.

Doesnt say they can stand and shoot in the shooting section either.

[Last Edition]

Why are you ignoring the passage that says they specifically do not follow the same rules?

Because they are not saying you are allowed to ignore normal shooting rules, just that special weapons (not common weapons) are covered in their own chapter. And, they even follow-up by saying "However, even the collosal trebuchet (war machine) is governed by many of the same rules as the humble bow and arrow..."

Doesnt say they can stand and shoot in the shooting section either.

Stand and shoot refers to page 38 (shooting)

[The Low King]

Because they are not saying you are allowed to ignore normal shooting rules, just that special weapons (not common weapons) are covered in their own chapter. And, they even follow-up by saying "However, even the collosal trebuchet (war machine) is governed by many of the same rules as the humble bow and arrow..."

Having just complained that i didnt quote the entire paragraph, dont try to cut off half the sentence.

The full paragraph goes:

"This section covers the shooting rules for common weapons and the majority of troop types. War machines and other, more peculiar, devices of destruction are covered in their own chapter (begining on page 108). However, even the collosal trebuchet is governed by many of the same rules as the humble bow and arrow, so its worth reading through this section before unlimbering your cannon or organ gun."

To analyse:
-The section covers common weapons and most troops types
-Warmachines and other peculiar devices are not included in this
-They are covered under their own section
-However, these weapons still have some similar rules
-So its is worth reading these rules to better undertsand the warmachine specific ones


It is very specifically saying that the normal shooting rules dont apply to warmachines.

Stand and shoot refers to page 38 (shooting)

It says: "see the shooting phase on page 38 for more details on shooting attacks". Not that only thing that follow those paticularl shooting rules may stand and shoot.

[Last Edition]

Having just complained that i didnt quote the entire paragraph, dont try to cut off half the sentence.

The quote had already been given this thread... sigh

The full paragraph goes:

"This section covers the shooting rules for common weapons and the majority of troop types. War machines and other, more peculiar, devices of destruction are covered in their own chapter (begining on page 108). However, even the collosal trebuchet is governed by many of the same rules as the humble bow and arrow, so its worth reading through this section before unlimbering your cannon or organ gun."

To analyse:
-The section covers common weapons and most troops types
-Warmachines and other peculiar devices are not included in this
-They are covered under their own section
-However, these weapons still have some similar rules
-So its is worth reading these rules to better undertsand the warmachine specific ones


It is very specifically saying that the normal shooting rules dont apply to warmachines.



It says: "see the shooting phase on page 38 for more details on shooting attacks". Not that only thing that follow those paticularl shooting rules may stand and shoot.

If this is how you interpreter the rules, then Cannons can fire grapeshots without modifiers, and Hellblasters suddenly got a lot better as they also do not suffer any modifiers for shooting.. I let advanced rules overwrite basic rules, but where advanced rules, for a type of weapon used in the shooting phase, don't cover how to proceed, I refer to the basic rules.

Shooting, starting on page 38 - Basic Rules
War Machines, starting on page 108 - Advanced rules.

[The Low King]

The quote had already been given this thread... sigh

Then copying and pasting it is easy.

If this is how you interpreter the rules, then Cannons can fire grapeshots without modifiers, and Hellblasters suddenly got a lot better as they also do not suffer any modifiers for shooting.. I let advanced rules overwrite basic rules, but where advanced rules, for a type of weapon used in the shooting phase, don't cover how to proceed, I refer to the basic rules.

Shooting, starting on page 38 - Basic Rules
War Machines, starting on page 108 - Advanced rules.

Well, i dont have the empire book so i cant comment on Hellblasters.

But for the cannon grapeshot rules it says to use the normal rules for shooting to select a target.

[Lord Inquisitor]

I seem to have missed why this is important. A bolt thrower uses largely normal BS rules, but it still is covered by the "shooting with war machines" rules like slow to fire, move or fire and pivot.

I can upgrade my soul grinder to have a bolt thrower. Presumably I can't stand and shoot with it? But if the slow to fire rule from "shooting with war machines" applies, wouldn't the pivot rule?

[Warrior of Chaos]

... But if the slow to fire rule from "shooting with war machines" applies, wouldn't the pivot rule?

The pivot rule is a function of unit type; not how it shoots. The Soul Grinder is not a war machine for unit type so you do not get the pivot (but it does have thunderstomp if that is any consolation).

I see a lot of folks trying to get this all or none mentality regarding things that can "shoot like::insert war machine here:::". Resolve shots taken like the described war machine. Remember to note which rules are part shooting like a war machine (whichever one), and which ones you get because of unit type. Anyway, my best answer is play it how you and your opponent can agree. I see this topic is highly divided and it will probably stay that way without a FAQ to clarify.

[T10]

[COLOR="#EE82EE"]Quick and perhaps seemingly obvious question here.

Can a hellcannon pivot before firing? This question can be phrased more generally, can a non-war machine unit that fires like a war machine (cygor, ironblaster, thundertusk, stank) pivot before firing?[/COLO]

It either shoots exactly like a warmachine (pivot and all) or it shoots like a normal model at anything it can see in its forward arc.

-T10

[belgarath97]

It either shoots exactly like a warmachine (pivot and all) or it shoots like a normal model at anything it can see in its forward arc.

-T10

And i kindly disagree as nowhere in the rules referenced in the hellcannon entry says it fires like a warmachine. However continuing this debate seems pointless, those of us who view shoot like a stone thrower as seperate from shooting like a warmachine aren't likly to be persuaded and thosenwho diagree are equally unlikely. It's a shame really, but in the end it comes down to GW's refusal to be consistant. If the faq had said fire likes a stone thrower includes the shooting with a warmachine rules... end of argument. But instead the address individually stand and and shoot, and move or fire. Some use that to make the case that it follows that they pivot, but it can be argued the deliberatly left that out...

This is probably the last i'!l say on the matter, good luck with the debate.

[dms505]

Maybe I missed something but has no one mentioned that if the Hellcannon can't pivot then it could almost never fire? If it cannon move and fire and even a pivot is a move then it would have to take a full turn to line up and then hope that the next turn the enemy was still lined up. That or it never needs to pivot, thus can fire in a 360 degree arch without having to turn. I has to be one or the other. There is no way they would expect it to use up a full turn to line up to a target that could easily move away.

[sulla]

Maybe I missed something but has no one mentioned that if the Hellcannon can't pivot then it could almost never fire? If it cannon move and fire and even a pivot is a move then it would have to take a full turn to line up and then hope that the next turn the enemy was still lined up. That or it never needs to pivot, thus can fire in a 360 degree arch without having to turn. I has to be one or the other. There is no way they would expect it to use up a full turn to line up to a target that could easily move away.

So maybe the moral of the story is 'It sucks to be hit by the hellcannon and lose 20 fellows in a single shot, so any chance to limit it's power will be seized upon"

[Harwammer]

It seems like all the technicalities have already been aired, which is normally my favourite part of a rules discussion on the forums.

On the table, however, I fire mine the same as I do for my OnG rock lobbers. All the way from selecting my target to rolling to wound. When rolling with friends at home sometimes it's better to just grab some more beers/tea and snacks rather than get bogged down in the details.

[GrandmasterWang]

This hellcannon debate also applies to cygors and arachnarok flingers correct?(monsters that fire like stne throwers)

Assuming they follow all the rules for throwers incl the pivot.... Then they can move up, turn 180 degrees and fire backwards correct?