All the new chaos marine launch? Just click...

[Putty]

i only want plastic cult marines.

the rest of the stuff gw can bin it.

[Kaltenberg]

You mean just like tactical squads from all the other armies? You use Grey Hunters as a comparison but they don't get any long ranged firepower at all.

Yes exactly. But unlike other armies. Our CSM cannot chose a shooty razorback to support them.
Grey hunters an in this example becouse spamming them and tooling them up in great numbers together with wolf guards works very very very well.
Not so with our basic marines.

There's a thing called tactical diversity; not everything in the army is meant to fill the same role as you suppose here. Cultists aren't meant to put out hurt, they are a meat shield (and one of the cheapest in the game at that).

You are mistaken.
If the different part of your army can support each other in the same aspect of the game, it works best.
Having a few CC orintated choices coupled with some shooty ones always leaves to great losses.

And I fear that our elite section cannnot support the rest of the army. Just like our current Elite choices cannot.
Termiantors are defently a possibility. But lone reaper autocannons are qiute underwhelming. Belive me I have tried it.

What makes the current codex bland and boring is exatcly that you have all the cool shooty things in the HS section, and some (relatively bad) CC choices in our elite section.
Coupled with the fact our troop section cannot shoot to a comparable degree with mostloyalist ones and codecies like necrons & DE paints a dark picture.

I am awaiting to see how this new codex hopefully allivate some of these problems. But I fear it cannot.
Kelly Wrote the SW & the DE. So there is hope.
But the rumours in the treads here does not seem to indicate the organisation of the codex and the possiblilities has changed.

[Polaria]

I read the design notes on the Heldrake and I must admit the idea of dozens or even hundreds of them nesting at the underside of a chaos warship ready to plunge on an unsuspecting imperial planet is a powerfull image. I like it. The impression does not translate to the tabletop that well, since the model is just so damn huge that it just fills up the table. The triple set of wings is a nice touch, though. As for the others I like the fact that CSM now have a look of their own instead if being just another color of marines. The Forgefiend looks a bit out if place, like a Tyranid rather than a CSM monster. The new infantry is nice. I like the baroque look that sets them apart from loyalists.

[Polaria]

I am awaiting to see how this new codex hopefully allivate some of these problems. But I fear it cannot.
Kelly Wrote the SW & the DE. So there is hope.

I fail to see how Kelly could give any hope here. Both SW and DE codices have huge internal balance issues slotting competitive players into spamming the few good units and forgetting the rest.

[GodlessM]

Yes exactly. But unlike other armies. Our CSM cannot chose a shooty razorback to support them.
Grey hunters an in this example becouse spamming them and tooling them up in great numbers together with wolf guards works very very very well.
Not so with our basic marines.

You mean the vehicle SPAM that everyone did last edition. Plenty of tournaments so far in 6th across the world, and vehicles SPAM has not been winning them. And your argument doesn't make a lot of sense either; you are working off the premise that having a Razorback means more shooting, but it doesn't it means a different kind of shooting. You can spend those point on something else that shoots instead, and end up with the same amount of shooting.

If the different part of your army can support each other in the same aspect of the game, it works best.
Having a few CC orintated choices coupled with some shooty ones always leaves to great losses.

And if you want a shooty unit to support another shooty unit, you take two shooty units. That doesn't translate that every single unit should have the same role. If you want two shooty units, don't take Cultists at all instead of complaining on the internet about it. And even in a shooty game, the assertion that taking CC elements will make your army so much weaker is (pardon my french) complete bollox.

Coupled with the fact our troop section cannot shoot to a comparable degree with mostloyalist ones and codecies like necrons & DE paints a dark picture.

Our Marines are in the same boat as the Tacticals of all the other chapters that have Tacticals, with the exact same set-up for special/heavy weapons, except they are cheaper; the only Tacticals that are different are Grey Hunters, but they get no long range or heavy weapons at all. You can claim they are worse all you want, but that doesn't change the facts. And once again you are comparing to Necrons one of the broken codices which again tells me all you want is a powerhouse of a Codex. As for DE, sure they put out more firepower, but they dies in droves. They aren't Marines so don't expect them to be the same.

And therein lies a point; you seem to have this idea that everything should be the same but with a different skin on. That's not how this game works at all. You are presenting worst case scenarios (single Reaper Autocanon) and fallacies (saying our Marines don't get as many guns as other Marines) as arguments to your cause. Also displaying that where your support comes from as relevent is silly; it doesn't matter if our Elites don't support well if another slot does it instead, it only becomes an issue when there is overcrowding, which (a) is not an inherent problem so far as we've seen with the Chaos Codex based on the diversity in the units across slots (though you will continue to ignore what I'm saying and state everything not in the heavy slot can't shoot well because they aren't Grey Knights or Necrons), and (b) is in every Codex bar Grey Knights. In fact it is very commonplace for GW to make Elite sections weak in codices, tough not exclusively (SW have a weak Fast Attack).

The main point here, is everything you are complaining about is true of most other codices as well, but you are acting like it is isolated because the two cases that suffer them the least are what you really wanted out of this. If you want an army like those go play those, you seem to act like all armies should be the same anyway, so it shouldn't be a hard choice for you.

I fail to see how Kelly could give any hope here. Both SW and DE codices have huge internal balance issues slotting competitive players into spamming the few good units and forgetting the rest.

Which is the point I've been trying to make to Kaltenberg; nearly every Codex suffers from bad internal balance, including most of the ones he is using for comparisons.

[samiens]

From the rumours so far noise marines are a competitive troops choice (with appropriate hq) but probably only upgraded with a doom siren and a blastmaster. Heldrake sounds ok points wise, oblits and termies, which are quality units now are likely to stick in, so im pretty sure there'll be at least one competitive list in I there.

[crandall87]

So chaos didnt get a generic troop box containing old armour marks and new as well as solid releases for the legions?

Jesus h christ GW has gone to *****, i mean seriously? I hope they relise how terrible in comparison these release's look to the forge world HH stuff that just came out,

I haven't read any other posts on this thread so forgive me if this has already been mentioned but the reason behind this is because of companies like CHS. GW now HAVE to release all the new stuff in the first couple of waves to stop themselves being ripped off by companies such as CHS. This means that stuff that already exists in codices don't get new models straight away.

[mrtn]

Aesthetically I would never use a Heldrake with Deathguard unless I could figure out a way to make it gel.

I'm toying with the idea to give the helduck a vulture head instead. May do it, may not.

[GodlessM]

From the rumours so far noise marines are a competitive troops choice (with appropriate hq) but probably only upgraded with a doom siren and a blastmaster. Heldrake sounds ok points wise, oblits and termies, which are quality units now are likely to stick in, so im pretty sure there'll be at least one competitive list in I there.

I wouldn't be so sure on Oblits; not being able to use the same weapons two turns in a row is incredibly limiting. I would upgrade the Noise Marines with Sonic Blasters too; you can easily get them in range in turn 1 and start shooting on turn 2. For other Marine units this usually means firing 10 shots turn 1, and 10-20 shots every round thereafter. For Noise Marines it means firing no shots turn 1, but 30 shots every turn thereafter. I think this will be incredibly effective, although having the option is good so that the Sonic Blaster can be dropped if this theory doesn't end up working in practice. No doubt that Blastmaster is an amazing weapon though.

[Lord Commander Eidolon]

I wouldn't be so sure on Oblits; not being able to use the same weapons two turns in a row is incredibly limiting. I would upgrade the Noise Marines with Sonic Blasters too; you can easily get them in range in turn 1 and start shooting on turn 2. For other Marine units this usually means firing 10 shots turn 1, and 10-20 shots every round thereafter. For Noise Marines it means firing no shots turn 1, but 30 shots every turn thereafter. I think this will be incredibly effective, although having the option is good so that the Sonic Blaster can be dropped if this theory doesn't end up working in practice. No doubt that Blastmaster is an amazing weapon though.

Unless you end up with master of deception and those noise marines can infiltrate

[Polaria]

Which is the point I've been trying to make to Kaltenberg; nearly every Codex suffers from bad internal balance, including most of the ones he is using for comparisons.

I agree mostly. Although have to say that Ward has nailed internal codex balance far better than Kelly. SM and Necrons are internally quite well balanced, even though GK is anything but. As for Kelly codices they are the premier reason for 5th edition spamminess.

[eldargal]

Sorry but that is nonsense. DE might not be over competitive but that is because nothing is absurdly broken, unlike GK, IG and Necrons. The internal balance is superb with most unit choices being down to personal choice rather than anytthing else. The only really subpar unit in the book is mandrakes.

[Importman]

i only want plastic cult marines.

the rest of the stuff gw can bin it.

110% agree! Especially after seeing this lot of new minis. Apart from the codex I want to buy none of it.

[Importman]

Look on the bright side. At least with Typhus, you can pass off all of the air bubbles and other casting issues as Nurgle mutations. But the scythe bending from its own weight over time, eh, I got nothing for that one.

Not sure you are going to get new Nurgle Plague Marines for some time, unless you have seen otherwise. I saw a rumor a while ago about new ones being worked on but I think that was shot down.

lol @ Typhus comment. Maybe it would be best to store out finecast minis in the freezer from now on.

You guys are right. I think I am holding too much hope of getting some new cult marines anytime soon.

[Shibboleth]

I haven't read any other posts on this thread so forgive me if this has already been mentioned but the reason behind this is because of companies like CHS. GW now HAVE to release all the new stuff in the first couple of waves to stop themselves being ripped off by companies such as CHS. This means that stuff that already exists in codices don't get new models straight away.

Which I don't get.
Surely if the models are not good enough to please the customers then there would still be a place for another company to try doing it better themselves...?

[Voss]

I really wish more people thought the same as you, as it is now I can hardly open warseer without feeling sick from all the complaining...

It is a cunning planning by the complainers to get others to others to sell off their chaos armies, so they can snaffle them up cheap.

[Kevlar]

It is a cunning planning by the complainers to get others to others to sell off their chaos armies, so they can snaffle them up cheap.

Unfortunately the opposite will happen. These models are so bad people will horde their old stuff and second hand prices on Ebay will spike. Plenty of people will pick up chaos because Dark Vengeance is fabulous. They just won't want these ugly overpriced new models and will scour the reseller market.

[Polaria]

Sorry but that is nonsense. DE might not be over competitive but that is because nothing is absurdly broken, unlike GK, IG and Necrons. The internal balance is superb with most unit choices being down to personal choice rather than anytthing else. The only really subpar unit in the book is mandrakes.

I play both regular SM and Necrons and there in each one there's several competitive army types. Of DEs I've never seen anything else but variations of one list, but I don't play them so I could be wrong and just see one type of list because of some other reason than internal balance issues. Still I think that barring GKs Ward got internal balance of the codices nailed down better. I'm not going to external balance issues because most of the "omg that's so broken" whining seems to be caused by people still playing old edition inside their own heads.

[vladsimpaler]

Dang, I have no access to the WD, would a kind soul be able to post the CSM army list from it?

[Voss]

Unfortunately the opposite will happen. These models are so bad people will horde their old stuff and second hand prices on Ebay will spike. Plenty of people will pick up chaos because Dark Vengeance is fabulous. They just won't want these ugly overpriced new models and will scour the reseller market.

First off, joking.

Secondly, your scenario doesn't make much sense. The new stuff and the old stuff don't overlap, and none of the 'old stuff' is going away. The only exception is the raptors, and as much as people are complaining about the 'new stuff,' the raptors are getting a pass from a large part of the criticism. And while there might be some attempts at conversions for the Daemon Engines, I'll be fairly surprised if the vast majority don't give up and buy them anyway.

Third, in all seriousness, I expect the new stuff will fly off the shelf, regardless of the complaints on warseer. Anyway, I'm off to go put in a preorder at the local indie shop.