Tyranids: Why I think they are awesome and why they are more powerful then you think

[Mike3791]

Hi all, I just woke up from a time warp and was checking out the *latest* Tyranid Codex as I hadn't played nids since 4th ed. At first glance it seemed like they lost a lot of their stat altering biomorphs, but when I compared it the old codex I realized that their current stats are a lot better then they used to be. Ex: Warrior and carnifex BS and AS are +1 better then they used to be, essentially having the old biomorphs already "built in". I think this is awesome.

Another cool thing is that Warriors were moved from HQ/Elite to Troops, which I think is GODLY AMAZING. WOW! A lot of people complain that Warriors are over priced but they have 3x more wounds then terminators and are cheaper too, what do you expect? Other people complain about ID but missiles should be shooting at scarier tyranid creatures. The Tyranid Prime/Warrior/Barbed Strangler combo is fantastic at wiping out GEQs and even forcing saves on MEQs. Again, awesome!

Another common complaint is that everything in the codex is overpriced, but I find if only a cheap Tyranid Prime(or two) is taken as an HQ then the ENTIRE internal balance of the tyranid codex shifts massively to our advantage. People are getting beat up because they are fielding 2 Hive tyrants/swardlord/flyant combos and they wonder why they have no points left. On the other side, if the big creatures were any cheaper then it might be possible to spam them and that would be unfair to a lot of opposing players.

Without the expensive HQs, I can flood the board with a scary amount of Warriors/Ymgarls/guants that even the most veteran terminator captain will request a diaper change lol

They only slight issue I can see with the codex is that the elite sections are super cramped, but that is also true for the older codexes anyway.

Did I mention Ymgarls assaulting out of deep strike is the BOMB

All comments or constructive criticism welcome, I am trying to better understand the Tyranids and help people get better with them

[Yaro]

Tournament results show that Tyranids are incapable of beating top tier armies.

They have very limited choices for competitive builds, and those builds have hard counters that are seen commonly in competitive play.

Warriors are not a competitive option, they are easily instant killed, expensive, and do not excel in any one role.

Ymgarls do not deep strike, but yes they can assault the turn they come onto the board. The issue is that they are competing for our only 3 reliable anti-tank slots.

But yes, you are correct that the best way to fill HQ is with Warrior Primes (or Tervigons).

[HalfBlood]

Yea Yaro said it how it was.

You have very little AV, Very Little AA, and cant even take allies.

I havent even seen a Tyranid player beat a DE list, I am pretty sure if both players are equally skilled, and have competitive lists, the DE player will always win. Lets not forget all the other power armor armies that will laugh at you in Close Combat and shooting.

They are a fun book, but are pretty poor and deserve some buffs. My best friend plays them, but when he does I always pull out my Orks for a fun game.

[Notanoob]

Hi all, I just woke up from a time warp and was checking out the *latest* Tyranid Codex as I hadn't played nids since 4th ed. At first glance it seemed like they lost a lot of their stat altering biomorphs, but when I compared it the old codex I realized that their current stats are a lot better then they used to be. Ex: Warrior and carnifex BS and AS are +1 better then they used to be, essentially having the old biomorphs already "built in". I think this is awesome.

It's cool and all, but having the upgrades built in makes them expensive. I would much prefer the option to leave them off so I could focus on cheaper, more specialized permutations. Also, the Carnifex's save is still 3+ like last edition, no built in upgrade there.

Another cool thing is that Warriors were moved from HQ/Elite to Troops, which I think is GODLY AMAZING. WOW! A lot of people complain that Warriors are over priced but they have 3x more wounds then terminators and are cheaper too, what do you expect? Other people complain about ID but missiles should be shooting at scarier tyranid creatures. The Tyranid Prime/Warrior/Barbed Strangler combo is fantastic at wiping out GEQs and even forcing saves on MEQs. Again, awesome!

People can really stuff a lot of S8 in their armies, especially if you factor in stuff like powerfists. Due to the high cost and lack of defense against ID, this is a real pain. Also, I don't agree that shooting Warriors are that great. They are again, expensive and are paying all those points for close combat prowess. You can't really take enough Warriors for the extra BS in shooting to be all that special.

Another common complaint is that everything in the codex is overpriced, but I find if only a cheap Tyranid Prime(or two) is taken as an HQ then the ENTIRE internal balance of the tyranid codex shifts massively to our advantage. People are getting beat up because they are fielding 2 Hive tyrants/swardlord/flyant combos and they wonder why they have no points left. On the other side, if the big creatures were any cheaper then it might be possible to spam them and that would be unfair to a lot of opposing players.

Most people are complaining about Hive Tyrants and Carnifexes, and they are justified in those two examples. Hive Tyrants are simply too easy to kill, and their upgrades to improve their speed or durability are crazy expensive. Carnifexes doubled in base price and again, are too easy to kill. Compare to the Trygon, you'll see what's the matter. Warriors are another good one, but their problem is being T4, not cost. And yeah, Primes are excellent HQs.

Without the expensive HQs, I can flood the board with a scary amount of Warriors/Ymgarls/guants that even the most veteran terminator captain will request a diaper change lol

They only slight issue I can see with the codex is that the elite sections are super cramped, but that is also true for the older codexes anyway.

Did I mention Ymgarls assaulting out of deep strike is the BOMB

Hoards are much stronger than they were in 5th edition, and Ymgarls do indeed rock. However, I'd like to point out that our codex is not that old. It is in fact newer than the Space Marine codex and Imperial Guard codex. I'm not sure, but it might even be newer than Space Wolves. Heck, as a 5th edition codex it should not be considered old at all.

In any event, they're better in 6th than they were in 5th.

[Mike3791]

Tournament results show that Tyranids are incapable of beating top tier armies.

They have very limited choices for competitive builds, and those builds have hard counters that are seen commonly in competitive play.

Warriors are not a competitive option, they are easily instant killed, expensive, and do not excel in any one role.

Ymgarls do not deep strike, but yes they can assault the turn they come onto the board. The issue is that they are competing for our only 3 reliable anti-tank slots.

But yes, you are correct that the best way to fill HQ is with Warrior Primes (or Tervigons).

Dev warriors can pump out a lot of shots, and boneswords ignore armor saves, it seems like that they can preform multiple roles.

Yea Yaro said it how it was.

You have very little AV, Very Little AA, and cant even take allies.

I think the T-Fex is underrated for AV. I was think of taking 3 for AV as the multiple high strength shot seems very useful, and this also frees up elite choices like Ymgarls. Also half the armies have poor AA so I'm not sure that argument is totally valid in the meta game. Allies would be useful at the moment but I'm not sure it will make a difference in the long run.

Lets not forget all the other power armor armies that will laugh at you in Close Combat and shooting.

Can you please provide specific examples with different tyranid vs marine units?

[Kevlar]

Well every weapon in a grey knight army can instant kill every one of your models, even the big guys. And GK are fairly popular or so I hear.

If the big bugs got Eternal Warrior then Tyranids would be a force, but they die too easily to too many things.

[Yaro]

I think the T-Fex is underrated for AV. I was think of taking 3 for AV as the multiple high strength shot seems very useful, and this also frees up elite choices like Ymgarls. Also half the armies have poor AA so I'm not sure that argument is totally valid in the meta game. Allies would be useful at the moment but I'm not sure it will make a difference in the long run.

There really are no other armies with more limited anti-vehicle options than Tyranids. Also, Tyranids cannot use allies.

So your army would look something like this:
Prime
Ymgarls
Warriors with devs and bone swords
Tfexes

This army would be wiped off the table turn 2-3 against IG flyer spam for example, with absolutely no answer to flyers. Honestly, I can't think of a single competitive build that this would do well against.

Now, Tyranids can do alright. Consider the following format:
Prime
3x3 Hive Guard
3x Tervigon/Gaunt
2x30 Gargoyles
2-3 trygons for higher pointed games

This packs a little more punch, has more survivability, but ultimately has big weaknesses against top tier. However, it certainly has a much better chance of winning than the format you are describing.

[Mike3791]

Ok guys, I guess your right. I was hoping that I saw something that most people have overlooked but I guess that's not the case. I don't want to play a cookie cutter list so I guess I'll check out the new Chaos.

[MasterDecoy]

meh, my experience with flyers is they just don't pull their weight, they come on turn 2 or 3, spend 1 or at best 2 turns shooting, and do nothing for the rest of the game as they try to re-position, add in cover, being locked in close combat and general manouvers and they arnt that effective, not saying they dont do damage, just not enough to justify the fear.

My typical list's include either a tyrant (v cannanon, bonesword, AS, rolling on biomancy) or a prime for a budget hq, warriors (either scythes and devs to keep em cheap or swords and DS if I have a prime), hormagaunts (ubergaunt upgrades), gargoils(also ubered), 2 to 3 zoans (rolling on telepathy for all but one of them), ravenars(rending), and a tfex (dissector, rupture and stinger). (we generally play 1 to 1.5 k games)

If Im feeling like some fun, ill swap out the Tfex for a regular fex (twin scythe and regen) and harpy (VC and ss) or swap the ravanars for some lictors, hormas for regular gaunts ect.

If you've set your table up right(I.E fairly, and unbiased) , present proper target saturation, and you know generally not do stupid things, I cant see how you would struggle so badly

Cant say ive ever been tabled before turn 5, and the games i do get tabled the other side generally has very little left.

[Mike3791]

meh, my experience with flyers is they just don't pull their weight, they come on turn 2 or 3, spend 1 or at best 2 turns shooting, and do nothing for the rest of the game as they try to re-position, add in cover, being locked in close combat and general manouvers and they arnt that effective, not saying they dont do damage, just not enough to justify the fear.

My typical list's include either a tyrant (v cannanon, bonesword, AS, rolling on biomancy) or a prime for a budget hq, warriors (either scythes and devs to keep em cheap or swords and DS if I have a prime), hormagaunts (ubergaunt upgrades), gargoils(also ubered), 2 to 3 zoans (rolling on telepathy for all but one of them), ravenars(rending), and a tfex (dissector, rupture and stinger). (we generally play 1 to 1.5 k games)

If Im feeling like some fun, ill swap out the Tfex for a regular fex (twin scythe and regen) and harpy (VC and ss) or swap the ravanars for some lictors, hormas for regular gaunts ect.

If you've set your table up right(I.E fairly, and unbiased) , present proper target saturation, and you know generally not do stupid things, I cant see how you would struggle so badly

Cant say ive ever been tabled before turn 5, and the games i do get tabled the other side generally has very little left.

Cool good to hear. Also I have found flyers to be overrated too, especially since I believe a player with no boots on the ground automatically loses the game via FAQ

[MasterDecoy]

only if they have no units, flyers count, but cant do squat to contest your objectives or claim their own, so its essentially an auto lose unless they can wipe you

[bossfearless]

There really are no other armies with more limited anti-vehicle options than Tyranids.

I disagree entirely. You have monstrous creatures and rending attacks all over the place. Granted there are only a few *ranged* anti-tank choices and that does present a problem at times if your opponent is running tank heavy.


@Yaro: Dude, the local Tyranid players consistently beat the local DE players, and yes they're all packing fairly competitive builds and know how to use them.


OP: Tyranids are better than anyone gives them credit for. The majority of people posting about how terrible they are have played very few actual games. The one valid complaint against them is that they lack a lot of ranged anti-tank and they don't have a lot of good anti-flier options. However, there are solutions in the Dex for both those problems that people on forums never take into account. For tanks, just overrun their position and kill them in melee with Tyranid MCs.

For Fliers, there are two options:

1. Ignore them. Fliers can't score. Most game types revolve around objective or table control. So just ignore the fliers and poop out vast swarms of gaunts with the Tervigons, thereby winning the game in the long run.

2. Dakka. While Nids aren't known for having lots of S10 guns laying around, they do have a few things that can put up a lot of shots at S5 or S6 with re-rolls to hit. A friend often brings a Tyrant with twin linked something or others that rolls a million dice and wounds my guys on a 2+. Sorry for the lack of specificity there. But the point is, it works just like massed autoccannon fire for taking out fliers. If you have to shoot them down, just roll til you hit something.

Also, anyone who runs Nids needs to be looking at Raveners as a viable option. Those things devour power armor and tanks like it's nobody's business!

[Bartali]

I disagree entirely. You have monstrous creatures and rending attacks all over the place. Granted there are only a few *ranged* anti-tank choices and that does present a problem at times if your opponent is running tank heavy.

Was going to post something similar, Tanks fall over if you just look at them in Assault phase now. Transports are less of a problem now too as people have to get out of them to score

[Fear Ghoul]

If you're really desperate for AA you could always buy an Aegis Defence Line or an Imperial Bastion as well.

[murgel2006]

The only people I have heard complaining about nids are tournament players anyway....

Nids provide a lot of very fluffy, very powerfull builds, I would even say Nids is the one codex which profides the widest variaty of fluffy lists.
No other codex gives you so much power in a build that does not spam or overspecialize.

It might be different in tournaments, because almost anything is different there but I have seen nids doing very well there as well.

[Yaro]

I disagree entirely. You have monstrous creatures and rending attacks all over the place. Granted there are only a few *ranged* anti-tank choices and that does present a problem at times if your opponent is running tank heavy.


@Yaro: Dude, the local Tyranid players consistently beat the local DE players, and yes they're all packing fairly competitive builds and know how to use them.


OP: Tyranids are better than anyone gives them credit for. The majority of people posting about how terrible they are have played very few actual games. The one valid complaint against them is that they lack a lot of ranged anti-tank and they don't have a lot of good anti-flier options. However, there are solutions in the Dex for both those problems that people on forums never take into account. For tanks, just overrun their position and kill them in melee with Tyranid MCs.

For Fliers, there are two options:

1. Ignore them. Fliers can't score. Most game types revolve around objective or table control. So just ignore the fliers and poop out vast swarms of gaunts with the Tervigons, thereby winning the game in the long run.

2. Dakka. While Nids aren't known for having lots of S10 guns laying around, they do have a few things that can put up a lot of shots at S5 or S6 with re-rolls to hit. A friend often brings a Tyrant with twin linked something or others that rolls a million dice and wounds my guys on a 2+. Sorry for the lack of specificity there. But the point is, it works just like massed autoccannon fire for taking out fliers. If you have to shoot them down, just roll til you hit something.

Also, anyone who runs Nids needs to be looking at Raveners as a viable option. Those things devour power armor and tanks like it's nobody's business!

I didn't say that Nids can't handle tanks, I said that there aren't any armies that have less options to deal with them. This statement is arguable, since as mentioned rending and even tervi-buffed free gaunts can handle them now, but we still have to build lists with anti tank/flyer in mind whereas many armies just have it built into their competitive all-comers lists.

I also didn't say nids couldn't beat DE. I've defeated my last 3 DE opponents with my nids. I implied that you can't beat good DE with warrior, ymgarl, and tyrannofex spam.

It is a good point that raveners are underused. A unit of 20-30 gargoyles screening 6 rending raveners is a deadly forward flanking combo.

[orkmiester]

meh, my experience with flyers is they just don't pull their weight, they come on turn 2 or 3, spend 1 or at best 2 turns shooting, and do nothing for the rest of the game as they try to re-position, add in cover, being locked in close combat and general manouvers and they arnt that effective, not saying they dont do damage, just not enough to justify the fear.

it depends upon what flyers you face... the DE razor wing is a bit 'meh' in my opinion but mine has never survived long enough for it to do anything of much value. Stormravens/talons are ok but are not too much of a threat. Where the whole thing falls down is when you are facing three vendettas (suprise suprise...), it also depends on how the player uses it.

Though as a non-nid player, when well handled they are quite good to play against...:P

[MasterDecoy]

it depends upon what flyers you face... the DE razor wing is a bit 'meh' in my opinion but mine has never survived long enough for it to do anything of much value. Stormravens/talons are ok but are not too much of a threat. Where the whole thing falls down is when you are facing three vendettas (suprise suprise...), it also depends on how the player uses it.

Though as a non-nid player, when well handled they are quite good to play against...:P

a vendetta is only reliably putting out 1 wound per turn (2 hits, 2 wounds, 1 cover save)

150 points a go to put out 1 wound a turn for 2 to 3 turns tops. I just dont see it being an issue (nor has it been an issue in any of the games ive played)

[PostinDirty]

Lets not forget all the other power armor armies that will laugh at you in Close Combat and shooting.

Can you please provide specific examples with different tyranid vs marine units?

yeah, the only hard example I can think of is maybe GKs. All other marine armies don't really bother me.

[Bonzai]

From what I've seen, 6th edition Nids rely on the lack of anti-air with Flyrants w/ 2x bl devourers and 2 rolls on the Biomancy chart, and Tervigons with 3 rolls. Add in a mix of hive guard/Zoey's, and the mandatory termagaunts, and some trigons and you have the bulk of the standard list. Biomancy is huge for the nids. Pretty much every power is useful, and add a ton to the Flyrants/large bugs survivability.

Once anti-air options become more diverse, expect the Flyrant to wane in popularity. But for now, I have seen some Nid lists do well.

That being said, Nids did take some hits. No more 2d6 to armor penatration for MC's. Units can hit and run from them now. Normal genestealers are pretty much worthless now, as they can't attack from outflank anymore, and still have no assault grenades. They dex's other flyer, the harpy can' hurt armor 12 vendettas. Other units, like Lictors and Pyrovores were terrible in 5th, and remain so in 6th.