What to Do with Hellbrutes?

[timff8]

Hello all,

In light of all the information being leaked on the new Chaos dex, I've been thinking about the Hellbrute (for the uninitiated, that's the new name for the chaos dreadnought).

Previously, If one were running a dreadnought, you ran as one of three things: a gun platform, a melee engine, or a melta-surprise.
As a gun platform, one would run it with twin autocannons. There is simply no other option for this type of dreadnought.
As a melee engine, you strap on another DCCW (now just power fists) and punch yourself in the face for being dumb enought to try to use a regular dreadnought as a close-combat unit.
As a melta-surprise unit, you give it a multi-melta and pod it in behind enemy lines, and wreck oneone's ****. This last one does not apply to chaos, of course.
So, really, Chaos dreads have one use, and that's as your twin autocannon platform. I know some of you out there have your own special dreadnought that bamf's around with a plasma cannon and a DCCP, or wahtever, but for pure, unadulterated efficiency, this is your best bet.

The problem I have is that with the arrival of the Forgefiend, it seems that Hellbrutes will have no purpose. 8 S:8 shots is better than 4 S:7 TL shots, period, and even better against fliers. You COULD give them the ectoplasm cannons and do somethign different, but for my money I'd rather go with a possessed Vindi for the better armor adn the ability to insta-kill pretty much anything. Plus the large blast midigates the crappy BS.
Anywho, so what do I do with my Hellbrutes? I've got 3 of them, so I'm not content to let them sit out all of my games. Even IF melee dreads weren't terribel, it seems that Maulerfiends will do that better, so that's not an option.

Any ideas?

All the best,

Timff8

[blackcherry]

Violenceha, don't teach people your bad habits . Just see whos online at the moment mod wise (scroll to the bottom of the main forum page and there will be a list of everyone who is online) and just ask them.

[trigger]

Wait ..... Chaos dreads are a power fist now ?
That sucks

With that in mind I probably wouldn't take one , but if I had to

Twin heavy bolters or auto cannon and use to back up a regular squad or fire support for bezerkers

[blackcherry]

To address the origional post now all but one of my prior posts has been modded, it still depends on the points cost. If I can run 2 or nearly 2 dreads for the same cost as 1 hellbrute, then dreads are still viable. Plus, I'm kind of partial to the old raving loonies trapped in a metal box .

Also @ Trigger, they always have been powerfists in a way, what with DCCW pretty much having those rules anyway

[Marked_by_chaos]

I don't share the OP's despondency about hellbrutes. Going by the info from this month's battle report in white dwarf and the leaks flying around they will have their place.

Forgefiend - potentially great particularly vs. heavy infantry and light/medium vehicles

Maulerfiend - potentially very handy against vehicles and buildings

Hellbrute - either more versatile than either of the above or better at fighting squads and characters

The forgefiend will pack a lot more firepower (although with multi-melta the hellbrute will be better against heavy armour). The maulerfiend will be better against vehicles and buildings which it can penetrate easily in combat and which can't strike back. However, in close combat the hellbrute has higher initiative, weapon skill and potentially more attacks. Although useful the maulerfiend may really struggle against independent characters, monstrous creatures, other walkers and medium to large sized units. It simply doesn't have enough attacks to kill these quickly enough unless supported by other units. On the other hand the hellbrute doesn't have fleet.

[timff8]

@Black_cherry: Thanks very much.

@Trigger: Walkers/MCs ignore the Unwieldy rule, so it's just a name change; you still strike at your Initiative value.

@Marked_by_chaos: There is a fine line between 'versatility' and 'duality', and I fear that dreadnoughts are the former. A dread with a fist and a gun can do many things, but that's nowhere as useful as doing two things well. With a single autocannon you shoot ok, but nowhere as near as good as say a Predator or certainly a Forgefiend. With a fist you melee things ok, but the mauler does it better. You can tie-up units ok, but a unit with krak and a fist/meltabombs will kill you in a couple turns, at the expense of as many dudes. Compare to something like a BAASM squad, which does only two things (close-up anti tank and torrent melee) but does them exceptionally well. Plus, they have the mobility and variable deployment to do them. I was honestly thinking a MM/power scourge w. built-in melta for a Hellbrute, but without the ability to pod you have to walk, and that sucks pretty damn hard.

Between the Hellbrute and the Maulerfiend in melee, I certainly think the Mauler is hands-down better. Both are stuck with AV12 so Krak grenades will ruin your day, but at least the Mauler has a 5++ and comes with IWND. More importantly, the Mauler can get to where it needs to be (12" move + fleet), which is what any good assault unit must have to be effective. A melee dread starting on the field is as good as dead. Put it in a pod or a Storm Raven, and it's effective. Same thing with any melee unit, really.

[Misfratz]

I'm torn between running at it with some power klaws shouting "Waaagh!" and letting it have some rokkits in the face.

I suggest you worship it, and beg that it distracts me long enough for you to make your escape.

[Marshal_Loss]

It doesn't actually matter, they ignore the unwieldy thing so for all intents and purposes they are still armed with a dreadnought close combat weapon

[Fizzy]

If you really want to play with a pod. Buy a normal space marine drop pod. Make it a bit chaos and use it as a dreadclaw. They are allowed to carry a dreadnought/Helbrute.

[DonKarst0n]

In my experience kraks are not that good against AV12 walkers... and I am talking about armoured Sentinels. A reason I take them so often is the ability to bind Space Marines in close combat without power fists. To hope to roll a 6 is just to unreliable which may result in the fact that you bind a unit in close combat for several turns.

[ArtificerArmour]

He's going to make your opponant have to deal with him. Added with him going mental.when he loses a hull point means he needs killing in one rurn, or he'll make a mess of whatever he touches. Jurys out until I see all his options and price, but hes a nice model so ill find a use for him.

[Haravikk]

There is a fine line between 'versatility' and 'duality'

I think versatility can be a good thing, as it can mean for a single slot you're gaining decent shooting and decent close combat; unlike the maulerfiend and forgefiend which are each specialised for a particular role, you can potentially adapt the hellbrute as the game goes on. For example, once close combats are being fought the forgefiend starts to lose targets, while a hellbrute can just join in instead. Plus the fiends look like they compete for Heavy Support slots, which means the Hellbrute may be a good way to add extra when your list starts getting full.

It's all speculative until we have points costs, but I doubt it will cost near to the fiends which are heavily specialised. So if you've got one of each, or don't have any in the first place, then it's a good way to add a bit of a mixture of each. I always prefer to have my units equipped for versatility just in case things are going badly; e.g - if I lose my main tank hunters I always like to have something else handy to take over, even if it's not an ideal alternative.

I think sticking a Hellbrute in a drop pod is about right, though if you've got one of each fiend as well then it's going to be hard for your opponent to choose what to destroy first.

[Threeshades]

I certainly hope for the sake of all chaos players that Dreadnoughts/Hellbrutes dont go the same way as the carnifex. As in that it will be replaced by a newer, shinier and bigger model that only costs marginally more but is harder, faster, stronger and better for only a marginal point increase.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

The rumoured price of the Forgefiend has been all over the map, but the latest I read said it's like 200 points fully equipped. I think that's too high to replace standard walkers.

[Hivetyrant765]

idk about you, but if the there is a ranged daemon weapon in this upcoming codex, id use the hellbrute from the starter kit as a daemon prince with that ranged weapon. as for actually using a hellbrute, i wouldnt. id rather take a daemon engine, unless it was to fit with the army theme (dreadnought in AL or NL army)

[Bonzai]

I look at them as fire support for when your Hvy slots are taken up (Daemon Engines are most likely hvy support, with the Drake being fast attack). Assuming that they are elite still, they are there to provide weight of fire and the occasional counter assault duties.

[Johnmclane]

Two helbrutes will probably be prised a little more than daemon engines, but not that much. I'd say use them for target saturation.

[The_Klobb_Maniac]

Space Wolves are Versatile; so they're bad. <= End of that debate.

[duffybear1988]

Well don't forget that the dreadnought is much cooler looking than the dinobot. Also it has a much smaller footprint so it's easier to get cover saves.

Then there is the fear factor - lets face it, people will see the shiny megablocs toy *I mean daemon engine* and shoot the pants out of it because it has ridiculous firepower and is easy to see towering above the rest of your army. However the dreadnought can make its way around the board hidden behind tanks and walls etc without being shot at because it just doesn't look scary.

[Draconis]

Also isn't the hellbrute an elite and the mauler heavy support?