What to Do with Hellbrutes?

[BruderLoras]

I'm a bit undecided on how to use them as yet. Deploying them in Dreadclaws sound nice, but it's a big monetary investment, and quite a few points too, and you can't get it down before turn two. Would have been nice if the Brute could take a Hades Autocannon as the first rumors indicated, because then I'd have been comfy with just walking it up shooting all the way. As it is, I'm just not sure what the best way to go will be. Depends on the points costs of the various loadouts as well I suppose.

Can it take marks? There have been mentions it can, but I'm not sure if that was shot down as well? And if it can, anyone have any idea what they do?

[Haravikk]

and you can't get it down before turn two

I think that'll depend on whether they gain the same drop pod assault rule as codex: space marines, which I think they might; this would let you drop the hellbrute on turn one I think?

[BruderLoras]

Im pretty sure CSM don't have the option for a pod in their codex, so I can't see them having drop assault; if you want to use one it'll have to be the FW Dreadclaw. And that one doesn't have the drop assault rule built in. So, turn two at the earliest, coupled with a significant points cost - I don't know if I like this too much.

I think it might be better to invest a couple points more, just run a pair with the cheapo standard configuration, march them forward on the flanks and see what they can do. If the Elite slots are available that is. Those look quite crowded this time around.

[Lord Squidar]

I have turned my hellbrute into a daemon prince of nurgle. Was hella easy too. I got rid of the multimelta and replaced it with a tentacle made from a spare screamer tail (exactly the same width luckily!) and then bored out the little face to make a toothy gaping maw (assembled it fully before i got the idea). Spent most of today bulking up his belly with fat and intestines and now working on pock marking the armour plates. Oh and two spare nurglings for effect =)

[BruderLoras]

I have turned my hellbrute into a daemon prince of nurgle. Was hella easy too. I got rid of the multimelta and replaced it with a tentacle made from a spare screamer tail (exactly the same width luckily!) and then bored out the little face to make a toothy gaping maw (assembled it fully before i got the idea). Spent most of today bulking up his belly with fat and intestines and now working on pock marking the armour plates. Oh and two spare nurglings for effect =)

Sounds nice, but "don't use it as a Hellbrute" is not exactly what I was hoping to find here... :-)

[timff8]

@Lord Zarkov:
Don't use it as a melee unit; the maulerfiend is better for one HUGE reason; it can acutally get to melee in time. But, you have to have a melee weapon, and the Scrouge drops your opponents WS.

@BruderLoras:
Yeah, I was dissapointed with the Dreadclaw. They actually have to wait unit turn 3 to do anything, as they don't have Drop Pod Assault; they have to come in on turn 2. Boo, not worth 65 points.
No, they can't take a Hades Autocannon, but they can take marks.

@Bork:
I'd really advise against the PC. It's not optimized for anything, really, and the one gun really hurts how much damage you can do in a turn. Killing termies is what it's good for, and it seems a waste to buy a gun to kill one type of enemy.

[totgeboren]

@Lord Zarkov:
No, they can't take a Hades Autocannon, but they can take marks.

Do you know that they can be marked? A lot of people have said they can't be marked...

[BruderLoras]

...and if they can, the effects of said marks would be quite interesting. As well as any special rules the Brute may have in the book. Besides the one that makes him get angry at anyone scratching his paint job that is.

[timff8]

@totgeboren:
I could be wrong, of course. I may have mis-read the photos I saw. But bear in mind that all of the recent ForgeWorld vehicles for Chaos can be marked, and the rules weren't erratta'd out.

If they can, I expect:
Khorne gives Rage.
Slaanesh gives assault and defensive grenades.
Tzeentch drops the AP of any template weapons.
Nurgle gives It Will Not Die.

[Vaktathi]

It might also depend on the respective close combat weapons.

"Hellbrutes" can now have Thunder Hammers and a Power Scourge that actually does something special - they might make a combat dread useful.

The problem is that an AV12 walker is probably never going to make it into close combat as a result of the Hull Points system.


Overall, while the they've got a cool model, and even cooler Forgeworld models, dreads/hellbrutes really aren't going to be much better sadly. While their Crazed may be less of an issue, they're still not looking to be particularly great gun platforms, and the laughable survivability of vehicles in 6th means they're not going to be particularly capable CC platforms either.

[timff8]

@Vaktathi:
It has nothing to do with the hull points system, or even being walkers. ANY melee unit that has no reliable method of delivery to close combat is pointless.

I don't feel that vehicles in close combat is a pointless venture; you simly have to cover your bases. You need to be able to get to melee, you need to be AV13 or higher, and you need to have enough attacks to actually make a dent in other units. Enter the Furioso.

[big squig]

That's just how GW rolls right now. Instead of making a classic crappy unit better or fixing it, they just make a new unit that's superior in every way and costs less points to field. This way you HAVE to buy the new "thing" to replace the old one.

[Vaktathi]

@Vaktathi:
It has nothing to do with the hull points system, or even being walkers. ANY melee unit that has no reliable method of delivery to close combat is pointless.

I don't feel that vehicles in close combat is a pointless venture; you simly have to cover your bases. You need to be able to get to melee, you need to be AV13 or higher, and you need to have enough attacks to actually make a dent in other units. Enter the Furioso.

Hence why I noted *AV12*. Hull points are a very real part of it, because on average you need less than half the firepower you previously needed to kill most vehicles compared with 5th edition. AV13 has the advantage in that many common mid-strength mutli-shot weapons and common infantry anti-tank grenades don't do anything to it so it's better off, but they're still significantly easier to kill than what they were previously on average, enough that without a pod and being able to come in right next to their opponents they're likely not going to make it. The problem with CSM's is that their walker units aren't AV13, are likely going to be very expensive, and the ones with decent attacks/movement speed are WS3 I3, on top of having no pods.

[timff8]

@Vaktathi:
I don't think that it's quite that much worse. Yes, three glances are all you need against most things, but likely two of those were penetrating, which in the last edition would collectively give you a 2/3s chance to Explode. Many anti-tank weapons that are still seen in large amounts are AP3 or less, so you're not as likely to get that result. I think vehicles are easier to kill, but I don't think it's quite that much easier. It's also compensated for by the fact that you cannot be stun-locked on your way in by Glances.

I dont' find WS/BS 3 on the Maulerfiend to be of any consequence. Anything that you would would be hitting on 3's if you had WS 4 is of absolutely no threat anyways. Forgefiends have so many shots that you're doing plenty of damage, and you have Possessed so you can't be stunned/shaken period. The fact that you're taking grenades on 3's is bad, but you have a 5++ and IWND, so you actually take less damage than WS4 without 5++ and IWND. I actually prefer the 12" move and Fleet on the Mauler to a Pod, because with that sort of speed you can dictate your engagements much better, whereas podding leaves you vulnerable within range of melta and other bad stuff for a turn. Maulers have no use to pod without such things as multimeltas and the like to do immediate damage.

Bear in mind, I still do not think that Maulers are premier assault units; they're not. I just think they're useable. They can get to assault, they can do enough damage with their plasma cutters, and with a 5++ and IWND they're reasonably tough to make up for WS3. They could really use AV13, but I think then they would be prohibitively expensive.

[Vaktathi]

@Vaktathi:
I don't think that it's quite that much worse. Yes, three glances are all you need against most things, but likely two of those were penetrating, which in the last edition would collectively give you a 2/3s chance to Explode. Many anti-tank weapons that are still seen in large amounts are AP3 or less, so you're not as likely to get that result. I think vehicles are easier to kill, but I don't think it's quite that much easier. It's also compensated for by the fact that you cannot be stun-locked on your way in by Glances.

For combat walkers stun-locking isn't a huge thing as they aren't reliant on shooting and typically still have a way to keep moving like Extra Armor/possession/etc.

I still contend vehicles are ludicrously easy to kill in 6th, easier than any edition before really (even 4th where nobody used vehicles that weren't invinci-skimmers). To illustrate the vulnerability, I'll run the quick numbers on autocannons and krak missiles against AV12 under 4th, 5th and 6th

Autocannon at BS3 under 4th
50% chance to hit x 16.66% chance to penetrate x 50% chance to wreck/explode + (50% chance to hit x 16.66% chance to glance x 16.66% chance to wreck) =18 autocannon shots on average required to kill

Autocannon at BS3 under 5th
50% chance to hit x 16.66% chance to penetrate x 33% chance to wreck/explode=36 autocannon shots on average required to kill

Autocannon at BS3 under 6th
50% chance to hit x 33%% chance to glance or penetrate x3 required glance/pens + (50% chance to hit x 16.66% chance to penetrate x 16.66% chance to wreck/explode)= 14.4 autocannon shots on average required to kill

Krak missile at BS3 under 4th
50% chance to hit x 33% chance to penetrate x 50% chance to wreck/explode + (50% chance to hit x 16.66% chance to glance x 16.66% chance to wreck) =10.28 autocannon shots on average required to kill

Krak missile at BS3 under 5th
50% chance to hit x 33% chance to penetrate x 33% chance to wreck/explode=18 krak missiles on average required to kill

Krak missile at BS3 under 6th
50% chance to hit x 50% chance to glance or penetrate x3 required glance/pens + (50% chance to hit x 33% chance to penetrate x 16.66% chance to wreck/explode) =9 krak missiles on average required to kill

I dont' find WS/BS 3 on the Maulerfiend to be of any consequence. Anything that you would would be hitting on 3's if you had WS 4 is of absolutely no threat anyways.

Aside from other some walkers and several MC's. The bigger issue however is being hit back, against many roughly similar units it's usually going to be hitting your combat walkers on 3's usually, and the I3 doesn't help.

Forgefiends have so many shots that you're doing plenty of damage, and you have Possessed so you can't be stunned/shaken period.

Forgefiends are shooting platforms and aren't quite in the same boat, though we'll see how they ultimately turn out.

The fact that you're taking grenades on 3's is bad, but you have a 5++ and IWND, so you actually take less damage than WS4 without 5++ and IWND.

Obviously yeah, but there's a lot of fast moving, hard hitting combat beasties out there for similar points that have both a higher WS and better Init with similar (if different) resiliency. And that then returns us to the Hellbrute's issue of being rather easily killed off given that it lacks the invul and IWND of the bigger (albeit clumsier) monster bots, along with being less killy.

I actually prefer the 12" move and Fleet on the Mauler to a Pod, because with that sort of speed you can dictate your engagements much better, whereas podding leaves you vulnerable within range of melta and other bad stuff for a turn.

True, there's a point to be made there for sure, though it's still going to have to try and cross the board with a measly 3 HP and a huge model it's going to be quite routine to lose it before it gets anywhere unfortunately.

Maulers have no use to pod without such things as multimeltas and the like to do immediate damage.

aside from not taking a potentially lethal amount of fire while crossing the board.

Bear in mind, I still do not think that Maulers are premier assault units; they're not. I just think they're useable. They can get to assault, they can do enough damage with their plasma cutters, and with a 5++ and IWND they're reasonably tough to make up for WS3. They could really use AV13, but I think then they would be prohibitively expensive.

Their rumored cost is already on the pricier side for what they do, at least personally. My personal experience so far is that vehicles as a whole are just too damn easy to kill in 6E, and vehicles that rely on engaging the enemy in close combat almost never make it there. So far the only one I've seen in 6E's lifespan was my Decimator against a terminator-overload Grey Knight list that only had a small handful of relatively short ranged psycannons and dropped a termi squad without hammers into my deployment zone making it an easy one-turn jaunt for the decimator to get stuck in.

[timff8]

Apparently I was wrong; vehicles are that much easier to kill.

I still make the argument however that the lack of being able to shake-and-forget vehicles is a huge boon to them. The amount of firepower required to kill a vehicle is still large, and when 6+ of them are on the field, it gets difficult. Being able to stop on from firing with Glances is a big deal for the mech-heavy armies out there to continue to apply pressure.

In regards to all your comments about the Mauler, again, I don't think they're a great melee unit. There are certainly better units out there. I just think it's better than the Hellbrute, and it's not so bad as to be unuseable.

"aside from not taking a potentially lethal amount of fire while crossing the board."
This I will disagree with, however. With a 12" move and fleet, it's very, very easy to get a 2nd turn assault, especially considering you entirely ignore terrain. I'd far rather take a turn of shooting and then be gauaranteed a charge than drop right into 12" range of the enemy and let him have the perfect opportunity to hit me with meltas, rapid-firing plasmas, or just charge me himself with something.

"So far the only one I've seen in 6E's lifespan was my Decimator against a terminator-overload Grey Knight list that only had a small handful of relatively short ranged psycannons and dropped a termi squad without hammers into my deployment zone making it an easy one-turn jaunt for the decimator to get stuck in."
I regularly get fun charges off with my Furioso dreadnoughts. I bring them in in Stormravens, and then switch to Hover the next turn and dump them right into assault. There's a slight risk to the Ravens, of course, but it's absolutely worth it, and they're assaulting with my Sanguinary Guard and Assault Marines to cover the units around the Raven.

[Da Black Gobbo]

I don't know about you guys but a dual heavy flamer Hellbrute with mark of tzeench seems pretty scary against marines, 2 str5 ap3 templates one of which is twinlinked that's a Meq squad gone on averages, if you get killed before doing damage, bad luck, but oh boy if you get in range, nice fire magnet to cover the rest of your army

[Cheeslord]

I don't know about you guys but a dual heavy flamer Hellbrute with mark of tzeench seems pretty scary against marines, 2 str5 ap3 templates one of which is twinlinked that's a Meq squad gone on averages, if you get killed before doing damage, bad luck, but oh boy if you get in range, nice fire magnet to cover the rest of your army

Er... does MOT give the flamer better AP, or do CSM flamers come with AP3, because its the first I heard about being able to get an AP3 flamer or better other than using psychic powars?

Mark.

[Da Black Gobbo]

Last rumours I read said so, but maybe the are wrong...

[BruderLoras]

Last rumours I read said so, but maybe the are wrong...

IIRC that was the rumor that also said the Helbrute could take a Hades Autocannon, so I wouldn't get my hopes up. Pity, because when I read that one I was also planning to make Helbrutes with Hades Autocannon, HF and MoT...