Does it feel weird that an infantry/tank/jet lascannon all use the same stats?

[OgreBattle]

Lascannon on a space marine's shoulder
Lascannon inside of a tank turret
Lascannon sponson on a landraider
Lascannon turret hanging off a valkyrie's wing

all are the same 48" s9 ap2 heavy 1 weapon. Does that feel weird to any of you?
This applies to any heavy weapon really.

[MajorWesJanson]

Not really. Think of say a Browning 50 cal. Same when it is mounted on an Abrams, on a man portible tripod, or as a door gun in a helicopter. True, it is not a heavy weapon, but the point is that a single weapon design can be used in multiple mounts and operate the same way. Some of the more subtle changes that could differentiate mountings are things that are not reflect in game mechanics. A Land Raider lascannon likely has some sort of gyrostabilization and some backup equipment making it a tad more accurate and reliable, while the man portable one is stripped down and only has a dozen shots with a backpack generator before running out. A tank mounted one could have enhanced cooling mechanisms reducing heat wear on the mechanism and making parts last longer before needing maintenance.

[Voss]

Lascannon on a space marine's shoulder
Lascannon inside of a tank turret
Lascannon sponson on a landraider
Lascannon turret hanging off a valkyrie's wing

all are the same 48" s9 ap2 heavy 1 weapon. Does that feel weird to any of you?
This applies to any heavy weapon really.

Nope. There are bigger and smaller things that have different profiles and we are seeing more of them again these days - long awaited after the big consolidation of 3rd. It is exactly why the Vulcan megabolter and macrocannon are in the big rulebook

[OgreBattle]

Not really. Think of say a Browning 50 cal. Same when it is mounted on an Abrams

That works, but I picked the lascannon because it's a big, meaty armor penetrator.
So it's like an Apache attack helicopter and a battle tank having the same armament, except the Apache has 3 cannons.


... or maybe IG style "big heavy weapon you only find on vehicles" cannons should be found across all armies.

[Cap'n Facebeard]

You could argue that there are differences, its just that they are too minor to be represented in game, ie the tank lascannon is really Strength 9.5.

As MajorWes says, size differences could be due to the tank versions having stuff built in that an infantrymen could see to himself, such as extra-resilient barrels, cooling systems, etc. Also differences between the IG and Marine ones could be due to Marines having better kit.

[The Marshel]

when you're comparing the rather large lascannons on a landraider to the ones carried by the marines its a bit odd yeah, but i tend to think it makes more sense if the difference isn't large enough to justify any variance. Basically i figure that while a land raiders large lascannon is stronger then the marine carried one, the difference isn't enough to get that +1 strength

[nedius]

If I were to pick a 'isn't it wierd ' with heavy weapons it would be that when firing Frag missiles, a SM or Tau (with all the advanced targeting systems they'd have available) are no more accurate than an ork with a rokkit-onna-stick. In fact, nothing - no tank, no dedicated missile launching system, is any more accurate than an ork. But, swap it out for a Krak missile and suddenly there's a world of difference in targeting ability.

[ehlijen]

Take the german 88mm from WW2. It was the same gun, regardless of whether it was mounted on a flak platform, an AT-gun carriage or a Tiger tank.

But also, a game becomes a lot more accessible and immersive if certain things are the same. The less different stats there are to remember, the faster new players will be comfortable with the game without having to look up rules too often. And the more names and statlines are shared in between units to make different combinations, the more the background will feel like it has internal consistency.
Let's say faction A has a light tank hunting vehicle. You could make up something new with entirely new rules, or you could take an existing chassis and put an existing gun on it to make a new combination of existing rules.

The first allows more models to be sold (which is why GW does a lot of it) but the second is actually more suited to making the unit believable (which is why GW does some of that, too).

[AndrewGPaul]

Bear in mind that there's a lot more variation in weapons in 40k than there used to be; once upon a time, that same lascannon was carried on the shoulders of Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Orks and Eldar Guardians (although they also had a version on a trolley), as well as being mounted on everything from a Land Raider to an Eldar Dreadnought. Orks used bolters (as did Tyranids, if you go back far enough), Eldar Guardians and Swooping Hawks, as well as Imperial Guardsmen, used lasguns.

The intention wasn't that each and every "lascannon" was exactly the same, only that they were sufficiently similar to use the same stats.

[Individual8580]

Maybe they never discovered the STC for "tank gun" lascans and compensate by bundling them up.

I guess having some kind of range difference could make sense. It'd represent a weaker or stronger beam without tinkering with the strenght or AP.

[AndrewGPaul]

How do the roleplaying games handle them? I would think that Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader/Deathwatch/Dark Crusade/Only War would have different stats for various lascannon patterns.

[Lord Damocles]

The tank Lascannon will have more advanced gyro stabilisers, recoil dampeners, larger capacity power packs etc. - but none of that is represented (or needs representing) in game.

[The Marshel]

If I were to pick a 'isn't it weird ' with heavy weapons it would be that when firing Frag missiles, a SM or Tau (with all the advanced targeting systems they'd have available) are no more accurate than an ork with a rokkit-onna-stick. In fact, nothing - no tank, no dedicated missile launching system, is any more accurate than an ork. But, swap it out for a Krak missile and suddenly there's a world of difference in targeting ability.

Edit: i had maths here, but I kepted rechecking it again and again not convinced my figures where right. My point is though that because BS reduces scatter the higher your BS is the less likely you are to scatter at all. Marines for example can ignore any scatter role that results in 4 or less, compared to the ork being able to only ignore scatters of 2. this makes the marine a lot more accurate

On top of this, each point higher in bs you are, the less sever any scatter that does occur will be. the difference is deff there

[trigger]

Lasscanons work for me.
What dose not is guard auto cannon - marine predator auto cannon

[The Marshel]

Lasscanons work for me.
What dose not is guard auto cannon - marine predator auto cannon

I'm kinda hoping they become marco cannons, biggest wishlist for 6th ed, but we'll see when CSM comes out I guess

[Athlan na Dyr]

I'm kinda hoping they become marco cannons, biggest wishlist for 6th ed, but we'll see when CSM comes out I guess

Who wouldn't want a large blast?

On topic, it doesn't really feel weird because of what Imperial Tech is based on (the various STC's). Seeing as they are designed to be compatible with one another among various other functions, it makes sense that the STC for a hand carried heavy weapon is at least similar to the tank version and so on. It simplifies the production process as well, making it faster to build and easier to maintain. Add to this the power supply is likely standardised (in terms of output, not number of charges) and a lack of significant difference in stats makes sense.

That said, the outlier is the Anti-air version, which does boast a longer range.

[Threeshades]

It does feel weird considering that the plasma cannons, heavy bolters, lascannons etc. carried by space marine infantry have only about a quarter to one third of the mass of any vehicle mounted version of them. There should be a noticable difference in power.

Note how it is really only space marines (and chaos marines) whom this applies to. All other races have appropriately scaled guns on their vehicles, son't have any heavy weapons on their infantry, or carry their infantry weapons in weapon teams or on gun platforms that are scaled just as the vehicle weapon.
The only exception i can think of is the Tau Hammerhead's railgun vs a broadside suit's.

If I were to pick a 'isn't it wierd ' with heavy weapons it would be that when firing Frag missiles, a SM or Tau (with all the advanced targeting systems they'd have available) are no more accurate than an ork with a rokkit-onna-stick. In fact, nothing - no tank, no dedicated missile launching system, is any more accurate than an ork. But, swap it out for a Krak missile and suddenly there's a world of difference in targeting ability.

well there is 2 inches less scatter on any Marine based blast weapon than on any ork based one. And their chance to hit exactly where targeted is also slightly higher because of that. Not as much as the difference between 1/3 and 2/3 as with non-blast weapons, but there is a difference none the less.

[DEADMARSH]

I think the thing to remember with questions like this is long ago, back in the day, this game was written as an excuse to play with models. This is why WYSIWYG has always been so important. As there's a model for a lascannon, and it's basically the same exact model stuck on a Marine's shoulder, the turret of a tank, the wing of a Valkyrie, etc., they all have the same stats.

I've never gotten the feeling that 40k was a ruleset or a fictional universe that people made models for- it always seems as though some guys came up with some cool sci-fi models then made up a universe and a ruleset to support them. When you look at things in 40k from that point of view, they tend to make more sense.

Not to say it's all totally sensible, but it helps you see where some of the seemingly strange decisions/ rules/ instances come from.

[Mauler]

I'm kinda hoping they become marco cannons, biggest wishlist for 6th ed, but we'll see when CSM comes out I guess

Macro cannons are mahoosive duder, if I remember right, they're more a Titan/super-heavy weapon and would never fit on a Predator.

Although, thanks to Forgeworld we are seeing some variance in weapon families now, with the Tau's Burst Cannon & Long Barrelled Burst Cannon being prime examples. The Long Barrelled turret variant has double the range, one more Str, one less AP and twice the dice (and twin-linked, but then there is two of them so that's a given anyway). The Missile Pod & Fusion turrets get extra bits too like range (Fusion) and small blasts (both).

EDIT - Drat, someone's pointed this out already!

[Konovalev]

The tank Lascannon will have more advanced gyro stabilisers, recoil dampeners, larger capacity power packs etc. - but none of that is represented (or needs representing) in game.

Technically it's represented in the game in that land raiders et all can move and fire to full effect while infantry moving can only snapshot their lascannon. Terminators of course being an exception to this.