Does it feel weird that an infantry/tank/jet lascannon all use the same stats?

[Chem-Dog]

As MajorWes says, size differences could be due to the tank versions having stuff built in that an infantrymen could see to himself, such as extra-resilient barrels, cooling systems, etc. Also differences between the IG and Marine ones could be due to Marines having better kit.

It could also be the flip of this. Weapon and weapon system design is stilted and backwards in 40K, there's little drive to no refine and improve. A Landraider Godhammer Lascannon might actually be inferior to the one a Devestator Marine carries but remain in service because the only STC source for Landraiders specifies that precise model, it could be that the Godhammer pattern is used in tanks because it's not man (astartes) portable, the lighter, more compact versions reserved for the Infantry who can't lug a gun with it's hulking great generators around.

What bugs me is that the Vendetta has so many lascannons without losing carrying ability, while the Razorback gives up space for half a squad to mount just one linked gun.

That makes sense, for the same reason Predators and Hammerheads cannot carry any troops at all. Basically, the Razorback's heavy weapons are in a turret, and the lessened transport capacity is to make room for all the extra servos and actuators that control and move the turret. The Vendetta's lascannons all either simply replace existing weaponry or are on external pylons, so don't take up any extra space.

Consider this.
A Landraider can carry ten Astartes, take out it's Lascannons and associated ephemera and it's transport capacity increases by 50% (the numbers vary according to which edition of which Codex you read, but it's a good baseline) even when replacing the LC's with other weapon systems. This is specifically stated. Lascannon Generators/capacitors* are bulky enough that (assuming one per sponson) they occupy the space taken up by 2.5 Astartes in armour.
Apply that basic number to a Vendetta with it's three TL LC's and you have to lose 7.5 guardsmen to make the gunship viable. Even if you could jam the Guardsmen into the 4.5 capacity slots left the additional weight on an aircraft is far more crucial than on a land-bound vehicle, affecting the vehicle's operational range for more acutely. All of the other Valkyrie/vendetta armaments (bar the multilaser) are dropped or launched and thus can be heavy as they (or at least a majority of their weight) only be carried half of the distance.

*I say Capacitors as it strikes me as odd that a Landraider with a plasma reactor engine would need to actually have separate generators for it's energy weapons, you would just need to syphon off enough energy from the reactor when you needed to take a shot, a capacitor would allow you to "hold" a shot/salvo's worth so you could do it on the trot.

[OgreBattle]

Say with the predator autocannon problem, wouldn't s8 solve that issue? "Predator has a bigger autocannon, it is s8"


Similar to how the Eldar has a s8 laser that has further range and fires faster than the infantry brigtlance (it loses lance though)
(then the hornet just goes 'lol we put 2 on a flying turret)

[Maidel]

And if I call my crap a rose don't mean it will suddenly smell nice

the predator is much closer to a German SdKfz 234 than anything else except it has treads over wheels.

If you are in charge of scatological science then that would be up to you.

This is gws game, it's their rules and their back ground

[TheBearminator]

There are all kinds of paradoxes in the weapons section of the game. Take for example the executioner plasma cannon. In all essential it's a heavy 3 plasma cannon that for some reason doesn't get hot? Could have been written as unique special rules;"triple the excitement", "superior cooling". My unofficial leman russ actually looks like the engineer may have thought about the cooling issue, it seems to have some kind of ventilation.

My favorite otherwise is one an old description of the assault cannon in my third edition (?) space marine codex. In short it said that the assault cannon benefits from s6 and the rending universal special rule, because it has higher calibre than its sibling, the heavy bolter. Excuse me? Look at the models for God's sake. When I take a glance at my land raiders, it looks like you could easily fit one of the barrels of the assault cannon inside the barrel of the heavy bolter.

[OgreBattle]

There are all kinds of paradoxes in the weapons section of the game. Take for example the executioner plasma cannon. In all essential it's a heavy 3 plasma cannon that for some reason doesn't get hot? Could have been written as unique special rules;"triple the excitement", "superior cooling". My unofficial leman russ actually looks like the engineer may have thought about the cooling issue, it seems to have some kind of ventilation.

Sadly only the Orks follow that line of organized thought (shootier, more dakka)

My favorite otherwise is one an old description of the assault cannon in my third edition (?) space marine codex. In short it said that the assault cannon benefits from s6 and the rending universal special rule, because it has higher calibre than its sibling, the heavy bolter. Excuse me? Look at the models for God's sake. When I take a glance at my land raiders, it looks like you could easily fit one of the barrels of the assault cannon inside the barrel of the heavy bolter.

I thought the 3rd edition assault cannon was heavy3 and didn't have rending?

[TheBearminator]

I thought the 3rd edition assault cannon was heavy3 and didn't have rending?

That might be. I did a (?) cause I didn't know what codex it was. Don't play marines anymore.

[Poseidal]

Rending didn't exist then, and was introduced for Genestealers in one edition. It had 3 shots because it exploded when you rolled 3 misses with all shots.

[AlphariusOmegon20]

Rending didn't exist then, and was introduced for Genestealers in one edition. It had 3 shots because it exploded when you rolled 3 misses with all shots.

If you're talking about the 2nd ed AC, it wasn't 3 misses, it was 3 jams on the special jam dice they gave you in the basic box set. And unless the Genestealer cult had it in RT, they never had it, because they didn't have access to it in 2nd ed.

I've got the 2nd ed. codex sitting right next to me, and it's not listed.

[Poseidal]

3rd edition had the explosion on your to-hit dice, because there was no sustained fire. Genestealers got it in 3rd or 4th edition, not before the 3rd edition incarnation of the Assault Cannon.

[MajorWesJanson]

Apply that basic number to a Vendetta with it's three TL LC's and you have to lose 7.5 guardsmen to make the gunship viable. Even if you could jam the Guardsmen into the 4.5 capacity slots left the additional weight on an aircraft is far more crucial than on a land-bound vehicle, affecting the vehicle's operational range for more acutely. All of the other Valkyrie/vendetta armaments (bar the multilaser) are dropped or launched and thus can be heavy as they (or at least a majority of their weight) only be carried half of the distance.

If you look at the FW model for the Vendetta, the Wing mounted Las cannons have what appear to be small power packs on the back of the mount, much like the ones attached by cable to the IG man portible las cannons. While Land Raiders, Predators, and Razorbacks are in the field for longer and ths need large generators/capacitors to power their guns, a Vendetta could get by with a small power pack capable of say 10-15 shots, as they are limited in endurance anyways and they could recharge the guns back at base when they refuel. Same goes for the single linked Lascannons that FW makes to mount on underwing pylons.

[OgreBattle]

That's partially why I started this thread, the idea that you can fit a tank turret's weapon on the wing of a fast gunship feels very goofy.

[AlphariusOmegon20]

That's partially why I started this thread, the idea that you can fit a tank turret's weapon on the wing of a fast gunship feels very goofy.

It's not so weird of an idea. Take a look at the M61 Vulcan. It has been used on everything from light armored vehicles (the M163 VADS) to towed AA mounts ( the M167 VADS), to Ships (the Mk 15 Phalanx CIWS on various ship types)to various aircraft (the F4 Phantom and the F22 Raptor, just to name 2).

Again, it's not that strange of an idea.

[lanrak]

Hi all.
Important things to remember about 40k.
Its JUST a game.
It is all about the rule of cool.
Real world comparisions do NOT apply.

[AlphariusOmegon20]

Real world comparisions do NOT apply.

Well that's great and all, but unfortunately, saying "real world comparisons do not apply" does not answer the OP's question, especially when you consider that it can be easily answered by using a real world comparison where a similar idea was used.

I think you forget that when Warhammer 40K was created, the designers DID use a few real world examples as the basis for some of their creations. Did you think the Predator is a strange idea that came off the top of someone's head? No, the basis of the idea came from the real world example of an FV101 Scorpion Light Tank. The Rhino used the FV432 as an idea jumpstart and even today, IIRC, GW has one painted up as an Ultramarines Rhino in front of one of their facilities. The Leman Russ pulls design ideas from the M3 Grant, as well as ideas from the WW1 Mark I Series of tanks.

To say that "Real world comparisons do not apply" doesn't hold water when look at WHAT was used as inspiration for some of the things in 40K that came into the game.

[Poseidal]

Hi all.
Important things to remember about 40k.
Its JUST a game.
It is all about the rule of cool.
Real world comparisions do NOT apply.

Rule of Cool isn't when it breaks suspension of disbelief. Reality is stranger than fiction, in that in fiction it has to be consistent with the setting.