The average Space Marine chapter in the Imperium is very similar in strength to ...

[El_Machinae]

I expect the fluff hasn't changed and that there're about a thousand space marine chapters. Of course, GW can only really focus on a few, because the awesomeness of a chapter can be diluted.

So, mean or median, I don't care. If you were to estimate the strength of the average SM chapter, which fluffed-out chapter do you think best represents their capabilities? I mean, it's unlikely there're 700+ unnamed chapters all proportionate to the Ultramarines or Space Wolves.

[starlight]

I've read that a few times and I'm still not sure what you're asking for...?


Do you want an estimate of how many Marines are in a 'typical' Chapter, or are you looking for a list of 'typical' Chapters...?

[Still Standing]

Until fairly recently the Ultramarines were stereotypical Marines, not the best example of Marines.

[Maidel]

Ok, like someone said above, Im really struggling to understand your question - are you asking for 'an average strength chapter that has some background?'

IF so, the problem with that is that all the chapters with a decent amount of background are all 'special' in some way. The founding chapters (ultra, wolves, fist etc) are all way way overstrength due to their fleets, empires, oversized etc and the other really famous chapters have all manner of weird histories - crimson fists are understrength, black templars are a wanna-be legion.

I suspect the closest you will get is Raven guard.

[Angry SisterOfBattle Nerd]

I think his question can be put up like that :
“A space wolf marine is stronger than Ultramarine marine. Never mind where this idea comes from. Is the average chapter comprised of marine that are as strong as a space wolf or as weak as an ultramarine ?”
I'm not sure though. If the question is about the number of marine,it's I guess a little less than 1000.

[starlight]

The official number of 1000 Marines refers to the ten Codex Companies. Several break-downs have placed the actual number of a full-strength Chapter at anywhere between 1200 and 2000, depending on how you see the various non-combat/supervisory/training/etc roles being filled (senior/invalidated Marines vs other Chapter servants). Many Chapters can muster far less than that due to casualties/etc.

The official estimate of 1000 Chapters has never been anything more than just that, an official 'estimate'. Someone once had a website listing all the GW Canon Chapters (anything ever mentioned in an official GW publication, with or without background), plus every fan/DIY Chapter he could find. The total was over 2,000 Chapters, and that was about five years ago.

[Col. Tartleton]

A Chapter is basically the largest permanent formation of marines. The modern equivalent is a combined arms brigade or a regiment. There's no limit to the total number of marines, just a general outline of what a Chapter is. My problem is that Chapters don't operate as a Chapter but as Companies which makes no sense.

Even a minor Imperial invasion should have a half dozen Chapters attached in full strength, kicking in the door. A Chapter should be just enough troops to suppress a single hive city's defenses and allow the Imperial Guard to get inside and do the months of house to house blood and guts urban siege craft that a hive city would require.

Six chapters should allow you to take out like 4 hives at a time with two chapters in reserve to assist the others.

Warhammer 40k is so badly thought out from a military perspective. It's just lazy. I mean these planets tend to have tens or hundreds of billions of people but you get no sense of a world war which is obviously the case given the fact you're invading from space...

[Grimbad]

Warhammer 40k is so badly thought out from a military perspective. It's just lazy. I mean these planets tend to have tens or hundreds of billions of people but you get no sense of a world war which is obviously the case given the fact you're invading from space...

This is why it's helpful to imagine all the background as in-universe rumors. It makes a lot more sense.
The Song of Roland is so badly thought out from a military perspective.

What's the typical Space Marine chapter? Well, the definite majority, even though it's not at all evident on the tabletop, are Codex-adherent Ultramarines successors with no particular gimmicks... except for about 20 surgically implanted special organs, powered armor and rocket guns, which are gimmick enough for me.
So look at the Ultramarines successors. Those are your normal chapters. There's plenty of them. They're strictly Codex, they have fairly unremarkable heraldry that tends to be derived from the Ultramarines patterns, they aren't werewolves or vampires, they're just ordinary Marine chapters. If anything differentiates them except for their histories, it's probably minor theological disputes over Codex interpretation and other traditions, but nothing very apparent on the battlefield. Novamarines, Black Consuls and White Consuls would be a few notables, though I think most of those are Primogenitors and would be slightly more divergent than normal.

[El_Machinae]

I've read that a few times and I'm still not sure what you're asking for...?

Do you want an estimate of how many Marines are in a 'typical' Chapter, or are you looking for a list of 'typical' Chapters...?

Mea Culpa

What I mean is that we've got a list of Chapters that we're familiar with, because they've got fluff. These Chapters have a range of power and capability due to the amount of resources they have, the quality of their vassal planets, their alliances with good suppliers, and their ability to recruit. The Ultramarines are rich, while the Night Lords are very poor (*caveat, I'm only halfway through Soul Hunter). The Marines Malevolent in the Salamander novel are also really poor.

Now, we've hundreds of unnamed Chapters, and they have an average level of resources & technological prowess. Which of the named chapters do you think is "average", in that their martial strength would be a decent proxy for the average unnamed chapter?

[starlight]

Ah! Gotcha. Thanks.

The aforementioned Blood Ravens seem to have been designed to be 'average'. Any of the Ultramarine Successors would fit the bill in that as well. I'd even say just the Ultramarines Chapter as portrayed in the 3rd Ed Codex, without all the extra Ultramar background, would be a good example.

I started Salamanders way back when they were deemed the 'weakest' Chapter (due to I3 in C:Arm) of the Originals, although that has changed over the Editions, seeing them go from 'weakest' to average to favoured (due to Vulkan's rules).

[de Selby]

I agree with Grimbad, ultramarines successors are most common and most codex adherent. So about a thousand marines as laid out in the codex is typical. I should think all the first founding chapters hit harder than average, one way or another.

The first chapter that popped into my head was Howling Griffons. As far as I know there isn't anything special about them except their colour scheme, which seems to be the primary reason that certain people (who like a challenge) play them.

The Song of Roland is so badly thought out from a military perspective.

I sort of want to sig this, but i also think it should be the title of a Brettonian project log.

[Joewrightgm]

If you look at the badab war books (excellent pieces), they stated rough strengths of chapters when the war started; the lamenters, for example had an operational strength of 700-800 marines from what I recall.

[Inquisitor Engel]

(*caveat, I'm only halfway through Soul Hunter)

Off topic a bit, but it doesn't get better for 10th Company, but it's worth noting that they're not typical Night Lords (and they're not loyalist Marines, obviously). The other warbands/companies Talos and Co. run into are much, much better equipped and 'rich.'

[El_Machinae]

If you look at the badab war books (excellent pieces), they stated rough strengths of chapters when the war started; the lamenters, for example had an operational strength of 700-800 marines from what I recall.

Yeah, it was the Badab war, coupled with my recent readings of Salamander and Soul Hunter that made me really think there must be a massive range in "resources under jurisdiction"

[starlight]

Given the state of the Imperium, I'd be shocked if there wasn't...

They broke the Legions down into Chapters...and yet many 'Chapters' are several times the size they should be...and others control (or at least strongly influence) enough Successor Chapters to challenge the Legions of old...

You could easily plausibly create a Chapter history to reflect anything from the nearly destroyed Crimson Fists or Celestial Lions to being part of the Empire of Ultramar...

[El_Machinae]

Is there room for another Chapter that is something like the Empire of Ultramar? If so, how many could we reasonably squeeze into the 'here be dragons' parts of our maps?

[starlight]

I said *part of*, not *another equal to*...


I can reasonably see several more the size of the Space Wolves (estimates range from 2000-4000), Black Templars (4000-6000+), and Dark Angels (6000+), but I'd be hard pressed to accept more than maybe one or two more the size of the Empire of Ultramar without some serious investment in background.

[de Selby]

Well, IIRC Forge World was recently pushing the Minotaurs as a sort of super-chapter with the blessing of the Inquisition (officially sanctioned Imperial 'enforcers'). So it seems there's room to introduce more big fish in the galaxy at large. Ultramar still seems a bit of a one off, but many marine chapters control planets or systems.

[starlight]

Almost *all* Chapters would control their home planet at the very least, likely their home system, if only through proximity and lack of other Imperial presence...

[Joewrightgm]

Bear in mind, not all chapters are planet based, and some just run their chapters from their fleet; black Templars and the lamenters being two notable examples.

Also there are a few that are 'in between', such as the marines errant which are primarily fleet based, but have a fortress monastery and several planets under their protection; however in the erranta case, they use the monastery as a safe house for chapter relics and gene seed.

Until Huron black heart came in and stole their gene seed and relics, dooming the errants to a slow death.