so, cultist preferences? naked or marked?

[Threeshades]

Actually Cultists are already at the same point cost as IG infantry. Both are 50 pts for a unit of 10 including a leader with +A and Ld.

Giving them autoguns would turn them into the equivalent of IG with a worse save, far less weapon options, and one more point per model with the only "advantage" being the option to increase the size of the squad beyond 10 (although IG can substitute that by buying more squads and folding them together, which means more sergeants and special weapons)

[BruderLoras]

Generally: no Marks. I only really see one definite and one possible exception. Definite: if you run a list with Epidemus MoN is pretty handy. Possible: 20 with MoK are 130 and might actually do some damage if they get the charge.

Also, comparing them directly to IG is misleading. In the context of a Codex with mostly high cost, elite units a cheap troops choice to hold objectives is pretty valuable.

[bad dice]

Are auto guns worth it? this brings them to the same point cost as IG infantry.
You would be using them as simple objective holders.

Could be but I look at them more like anti droppod bubble wrap.

Those new gun beasts are pretty nice but can still be alpha striked by a dropod melta dread.
Not so much if there are 30 dudes around it.
They can then go to town holding that objective aftherward.
And since they are not really gooing to be dooing much afther that you might as well keep em a cheap as possible.

Also holding objectives is properly easyer if you go to ground and in that case auto guns ain't going to add much.

[Mandragola]

You don't score of you go to ground.

Autoguns might achieve something. Auto pistols won't. If probably take them if possible.

The thing to remember with MoN or MoT is combat resolution. These upgrades may not mean that you have more guys alive at the end (having started with not so many) but you should have suffered fewer casualties. This might mean you win the fight, or pass your ld check

[bad dice]

You don't score of you go to ground.

Autoguns might achieve something. Auto pistols won't. If probably take them if possible.

The thing to remember with MoN or MoT is combat resolution. These upgrades may not mean that you have more guys alive at the end (having started with not so many) but you should have suffered fewer casualties. This might mean you win the fight, or pass your ld check

obviusly you dont go to ground at the end of the game. But during the game to reduce casualties.

And your right auto guns will probably do some dammage and whit pistols you don't

The question is cant you get more damage out of those 30 points else where?
you probably can. I am guessing that taking 2 havoc launchers for instance will get you more kills then those 30 auto guns.

[Bubble Ghost]

Are you sure about not scoring if you go to ground? It just says falling back in the rulebook. Has there been an FAQ on that that I've missed? Seems a bit stupid if so, why should you lose control of an objective for digging in there..?

[druchii]

Naked, 35 strong (sorry zombies! ) with a character like Ahriman or an Apostle to make them fearless.

d

[Mandragola]

I was sure, but now it seems I was wrong. No idea where I got it from. Maybe something like a tournament pack, or possibly my own imagination. Apologies for the confusion.

[lordreaven448]

Hi, lurker here (will make a hello post sometime in Introduction). I noticed Cultists Champs get to add a shotgun on top of their existing gear. Also if you up them to autoguns don't give one to champ, he will lose his pistol if you do, and don't give any autoguns to Stubber guys. A 10 man unit will basically get a free shotgun if you don't give the champ a Autogun and Stubber/Flamer autoguns.

[FPPaul]

OK, I know this ignores upgrades/options and is pure math-hammer, but correct me if I am wrong (have read a copy of the codex, but yet to purchase it):

Points-wise, 5CSM cost the same as 13 shooty cultists right? So shooting at a MEQ:

CSM-5 shots > 3.3 hits > 1.6 wounds > 0.6 after saves
Cultists-13 shots > 6.5 hits > 2.2 wounds > 0.7 after saves

Taking hitty cultists means 5CSM for the price of 16 cultists and CC with a MEQ:

CSM-11 attacks > 5.5 hits > 2.75 wounds > 0.92 after saves
Cultists- 33(!) attacks > 16.5 hits > 5.5 wounds > 1.83 after saves

Now, I'm not saying that this means they are in any way equal to a CSM, but while you get more options with other units none of the options are free andthey come on a unit that probably already costs more points. Giving them a mark to help them camp on an objective or even to give them a little bit more punch in CC may not be completely mad. Hell, they could even just herd Kharn across the battlefield so you don't have to worry about him accidently decapitating something useful but still have him in a fluffy unit - all the proper world eaters know what he's like and refuse to come within 100 yards of him after all, so it would even be quite fluffy to have him in there. Plus if you want to shoot Kharn? Fine, but you'll have to shoot your way through an entire unit of chaff first. When you could be shooting the bikes/raptors which are already halfway to your lines.

Let's see, 5csm&MoK = 12cultists&MoK
Can't be bothered with the workings but:

Straight combat
CSM - 0.9 after saves
cultists - 1.4 after saves


Counter Attack:
CSM - 1.3 after saves
Cultists - 2.1 after saves

Charging:
CSM-1.75 after saves
Cultists-2.7 after saves

That's 49 attacks on the charge for 82 points, yeah we're missing out on a lot of things that could happen on the way and there are better options with more available upgrades, but you tell me that unit wouldn't make mincemeat out of fire warriors as much as any of the more expensive options in the codex.

(Oh and of course this all assumes that you only ever fight Space marines with no upgrades who can't attack you back first. :P )

[Flufflyrabbit]

Personally if I plan to go CC with Cultists either with MoK or naked (with more bodies for the same cost).

If I plan to use them to hold a objective I'll probably equip them with Autoguns and throw in a Aegis Defense Line along with a Quad Gun. This way at least I'll have a scoring unit which can deal with incoming Flyers, plus the cover save is bit more reliable than their crappy one.

[CrownAxe]

I like to just take MoN and put them in a Defense Line with the Quad Gun

[Mandragola]

As a bodyguard for a character, particularly a fearless character, they are fine. And yes they are relatively dangerous in cc for their cost relative to csm (though it's very close to the cost of something like an ork, which is a lot better).

Bear in mind that chaos marines have better initiative and are vastly tougher than cultists. By the time the cultists get to strike, many of them may already have been killed by shooting as they advance, overwatch (flamers!) and enemy attacks. So while the cultists may kill more stuff, if they do all get to strike, they could easily lose combats that chaos marines would win due to their own losses.

The problem I see is that they are a niche unit. They will only really beat a few things in combat, and if they run into midfield only to find grey hunters coming in the other direction, they are in big trouble. That changes a bit if you stick Kharn in there, obviously!

[Zogash]

Well for starters ic's can only join squads that have the same
mark

Not quite correct. They may not join a squad that has a different mark than they do - there's nothing keeping 'em from joining unmarked squads!

[crandall87]

I personally don't see marks being that cost effective. I would run them naked in large squads or try a large zombie squad. I think a Dark Apostle or a character in them would be a wise choice as you wouldn't want a 35 strong squad running away once they have lost 9 guys in a single shooting phase. I view them as more of a distraction rather than a squad that can take objectives.

[shakedown47]

I've settled on a max squad, 3 flamers, 24 autoguns, to babysit my 3++ Black Mace chaos lord. 35 fearless guys is a lot to chew through, even if they're only T3, and charging them isn't exactly a pleasurable thought since you'll be taking 3D3 Str4 hits on the way in and only have a bunch of insta-kill toughness tests to look forward to once you get there. Pick an objective and sit. Plus, some of those warlord traits go pretty nicely with 35 bodies.

[Kelanen]

and charging them isn't exactly a pleasurable thought since you'll be taking 3D3 Str4 hits on the way in

*shrugs* So 6 S4 AP5 hits? Exactly what a Marine squad would do. If they had no special or heavy weapons. And were at long range.

Honestly, it's nothing - an irrelevance.

Your squad is as hard as the Lord in it, and the Cultists aren't adding a lot beyond some meat shields. Half as many would do the job just as well, and make Cover much easier, and blasts less damaging.

Also you don't need to chew through 35 Cultists. You don't attack that unit unless you can handle the Lord, and if you can do that, then they lose fearless, and will rout in the first combat round after - without fearless you'll win fights on points value, but lose it on bodies, and then you'll get swept. Now the Lord isn't a slouch by any means, but anyone that can't take him, won't be charging in anyway.

It's way too many bodies for objective sitting. That's also a bad use of an expensive tooled up Lord IMO - you'd be better using him aggressively.

[shakedown47]

Any failings of that unit is overshadowed by its usefulness, IMO. It seems too big to be ignored entirely, since claiming an objective doesn't stop a unit from also being a denial unit (35 guys can spread out quite a ways) and it doesn't exactly suck in combat. It's their to be shot at or ignored, as my opponent sees fit. If they want to shoot at it, great; it's going to take a long time to kill each one of them and takes some heat off of my raptors and CSM. If they want to ignore it, they'll likely find that it doesn't want to ignore them back. Also, while MEQs might shrug disdainfully at the futility of a handful of Str 4 auto-hits, any T3 elite unit is going to think twice I should think. Bloodbrides and their ilk should be terrified of overwatch fire from that cultist unit, and even 4+ and 3+ armoured foes can count on taking a casualty or two. I'd also disagree with you that it's too many bodies for objective sitting; it's going to be hard for an enemy to deny me that objective if there's 4" of models surrounding it.

Here's what I predict this unit will do, and the few games I've played with it bear it out:
1. Consistently last, intact, to the final turn of the game, denying my opponent up to 3 or more victory points in the process.
2. Be a huge fire magnet for my opponent, which between massive numbers and going to ground when necessary they should be able to bear.
3. Claim and hold an objective for the course of the game, and possibly even deny one or even two more.
4. Completely fail and fall apart every sixth or seventh game. Compared to the CSM squads, Oblit squads, raptors, etc. that I can pretty much count on dying every single game, I'll take it.

I'm not claiming it's a deathstar or some devious master stratagem, it's just a good, solid unit that doesn't really do anything all that badly.

[Kelanen]

Firstly, if you are clustered up that much pieplates will wreak havoc with you. Secondly, denying a second objectives is very unlikely - if you spread out that much someone will suicide assault you, and pull you off your primary objective.

A good army won't be playing BloodBrides or the like, and whilst yes, you may get a a casualty or two from their fire, that's 140pts, I'd want to do a lot better than that. Only a fool would shoot the unit with anything but pieplates (and not a priority target even then). You don't need to deal with it, since if one cedes you the objective it's further impact is negligible. It won't be gunned down, it will be assaulted or ignored.

My point isn't that it's terrible, my point is that there's a list of things it reasonably can and can't do with it. If you cut from 35 to cultists to 15-20 that list would remain identical. The extra bodies aren't gaining you any new capability, the things that beat you will still beat you, and the things that couldn't, couldn't anyway.

[The_Klobb_Maniac]

Also, it does kinda suck at combat. Shootas for example have the same number of attacks, a decent gun (and decent overwatch), Fearless, T4, and are still really mediocre at combat (mostly when charged. They're ok on the charge.)

To hammer it home; go with the extraordinary assumption that 35 cultists get into combat after being charged:
35 hits, 12 wounds on T4 => 4 MEQ, or 10 orks. (note that either of these assumptions would have about 10 or so cultists dead before they struck due to shooting and/or initiative)

Admittedly, it seems impressive; but it's a logical impossibility. I play Orks quite often and 30 is very unwieldy (although quite necessary for a footslogging Ork squad.) The fact you're talking more models means to get many into combat they're either bunched up (=death by template/blast) or spread out (=death by combat) as stated above. Worst case scenario? I sit at 18" with shootas and pepper the squad (that costs almost as much anyway) with about 7-13 kills each turn and if you go to charge, good luck getting a 10-12 on your charge range.

if you DO do 35, I'd do it with Autoguns; at least then you can kill some stuff at range for a reasonable price tag (at least, a little bit better than bolt guns)