Barbarians at the Gates

[Poseidal]

Just as the Orks are sort of the barbarians at the gates of civilisation now (in a manner), did the Necrontyr (or were they Necron by then?) regard the Eldar as similar? (as they would be, in comparison, a collection of barbarian tribes with primitive technology; the early Eldar fought them with spears and javalins didn't they?)

[Palvinore]

Except with the use of psychic powers, the seemingly primitive can end up doing things that would seem impossible. Witchblades and Singing Spears piercing advanced armor alloys, psychic heavy flamers from the palm of one's hand (Destructor), and other weirdness.

[blackcherry]

I tend to view the Eldars view of their war in heaven as more allegorical than literal. So perhaps they were fighting with more primitive weapons than they possess now, but they weren't fighting a galactic war using actual spears and swords and nothing else.

As much as 40k doesn't make perfect sense, its not that stupid.

[Firaxin]

Not necessarily. Don't forget they were created (partly) as warrior-fodder for the Old Ones, and that the Old Ones were like Gods to them. Their perspective wouldn't be that much different from crusaders (pick one) fighting the infidels (pick one) in our history--the main difference being they travel to battle through these shimmering portals created by their Gods. Heck, it's even feasible the Eldar weren't even initially aware they were leaving their homeworld when they would go off to battle, the same way Columbus thought he was landing in India/Asia.

In the end though, the primitiveness of Eldar weaponry isn't at issue; a more accurate description of the time period would be that the necrontyr were the barbarians at the Old Ones' gates.

[Horus38]

I tend to view the Eldars view of their war in heaven as more allegorical than literal.

This. Although there are mentions of Eldar heroes fighting with swords, there's also "wraith-knights" created by Vaul (I picture proto-wraithlords) which use soul fire to burn wave after wave of necontyr constructs.

[Still Standing]

Sometimes the Barbarians cause such a fuss that the universe itself decides to eat you all...

[Lord Damocles]

Given most of the quotes we have from Necrons on the various Young Races, they seem to view pretty much everything which isn't Necron(tyr) as inferior at best, and simple animals at worst.

To be fair, they often have a point.

[Still Standing]

To be far, so do the Eldar, Humans, Tyranids and Daemons too. Basically the only race who don't look down their noses at aliens are the Orks.

[Gazak Blacktoof]

I don't think there are any direct quotes that relate to the way the necrontry viewed the eldar. I think it is likely that they viewed them as fools. During the war in heaven the eldar, orks and other subject races seem to be used as pawns in the war. There's nothing stating that these races were anything more than living weapons to the old ones.

In the end though, the primitiveness of Eldar weaponry isn't at issue; a more accurate description of the time period would be that the necrontyr were the barbarians at the Old Ones' gates.

Hardly. The necrontyr were masters of technology and were able to outdo the old ones in a straight up fight. The sticking point in the war in heaven was the webway which gave the old ones superior mobility and allowed the too retreat and hide without reprisal until the C'Tan and necrons broke in. Perhaps the old ones viewed the necrontyr as cultural barbarians, but that is a bit of stretch given that we know next to nothing about their culture aside from the mortuary cult aspect.

[Still Standing]

As I understood it the Old Ones almost destroyed the Necrontyr, but then they discovered the C'tan and Necroned themselves (doesn't matter how or why). Despite some initial victories the Old Ones were beating the Necrons again until the Enslaver plague all but wiped the Old Ones out and forced the Necrons into hibernation.

[Lord Damocles]

As I understood it the Old Ones almost destroyed the Necrontyr, but then they discovered the C'tan and Necroned themselves (doesn't matter how or why). Despite some initial victories the Old Ones were beating the Necrons again until the Enslaver plague all but wiped the Old Ones out and forced the Necrons into hibernation.

The Old Ones basically defeated the Necrontyr but chose not to wipe them out.
The Necrontyr encountered the C'tan and became the Necrons.
The Necrons/C'tan all but wipe out the Old Ones and the Young Races. They rule the galaxy for an unspecified - but long - time.
Eventually the Old Ones create highly psychic races in desperation. These races push the Necrons/C'tan back. (This is where all of the Eldar (+gods) battles fit in)
The Enslaver plague happens and everyone loses.

At some point the Necrons now defeat the C'tan as well. This could fit between stages three and four and the old and new continuities coexist fairly happily together.

[Firaxin]

Hardly. The necrontyr were masters of technology and were able to outdo the old ones in a straight up fight. The sticking point in the war in heaven was the webway which gave the old ones superior mobility and allowed the too retreat and hide without reprisal until the C'Tan and necrons broke in. Perhaps the old ones viewed the necrontyr as cultural barbarians, but that is a bit of stretch given that we know next to nothing about their culture aside from the mortuary cult aspect.

So by your own description, the steps were a) the Old Ones built galaxy-spanning infrastructure, b) the necrontyr arrive and attack the Old Ones, forcing them to garrison themselves in the safest sections of this infrastructure, c) the C'tan/Necrons 'broke in.'

And yet somehow that's NOT the necrontyr at the Old Ones' gates?

[Stonerhino]

It was the Necrontyr who had the galaxy spanning empire and picked a fight with the Old Ones because they wanted to stop infighting. The new codex lays that out pretty clear. The Old codex has the Necrontyr more technologically adavnced then the Old Ones before finding the C'Tan.

Meaning that in the existing fluff the Necrontyr were never the "Barbarian" because they always have had the technological edge.

Edit:
We don't however know that the Necrontyr never fought against another more technologically advanced race that had superior tech. We just know that if it did happen, it has not been talked about yet.

[Firaxin]

Gah, curse you Newcrons!

But don't we definitively know the Old Ones were the first sentient race in the galaxy? At some point the necrontyr had to be the fledgling new kids on the block.

[Stonerhino]

Not really the "New kid". Just the "Slower expanding kid". And given the difference in intersteller travel. The Necrontyr, had to have a huge head start to be a galactic power at the time of the first war.

[TheDungen]

does it matter if the necrons had better stuff the old ones still won, its like saying hey i have better weapons based on newtonian physics when you opponent shows up with the a bomb. the old ones might not have understood the dimensions they worked with as thoroughly as the necrotyr did their but on the other hand they worked with more dimensions than the necrotyr ever knew existed. The necrotyr had better more well crafted stuff but the old ones werent playing the same game, so it didnt really matter.

Techonlogy is just the study of how to do things. Which means its a matter of knowledge, the old ones knew things the necrotyr didn't thus they were more advanced.

The c'tan on the other hand saw the old ones weakness that they were few and that every old one that fell in battle could not easily be replaced, so they made the necrotyr into necrons so they could be made and remade indefinitely and thus slowly win a war of attrition against the old ones. When the old ones realised the momentum was going agaisn tthem they did what the c'tan had done. they created a servant race that had the same skill with the warp but were far more numerous than the old ones allowing them to take casualties that the old ones could not afford.

I cna imagine the eldar fought with spears and swords and magic armour. Or at least that is what it would've seemed to them. All magic is really only magic until you understand how it works and at this point the old ones knew how the warp worked (pre chaos) so to them it was techonlogy (possibly far more advanced than the current eldar of dark eldar technology), but to the eldar it was simply the magic of their gods.

and when the old ones passed away they took up residence in the warp where they existed until the comming of slaanesh killed them.

Well at least that's my interpretation.

[Lord Damocles]

Techonlogy is just the study of how to do things. Which means its a matter of knowledge, the old ones knew things the necrotyr didn't thus they were more advanced.

Lets not go here again.

[Tonberry]

the early Eldar fought them with spears and javalins didn't they?)

Hey, this is the 41st Millenium, where hitting someone with your gun is usually more effective than firing it at them anyway.

[TheDungen]

ha Tonberry havent you played inquisitor, space marine kills people easier by throwing their bolters at them than firing them =P

Sorry Damocles but the emperor was right, there are no gods and there is no magic. Its all about failure to understand.

[Poseidal]

The reason I thought of it was I got the impression from when the Necrons began their sleep in the new codex.