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Thread: Spirit leech and unmodified Leadership

  1. #61

    Re: Spirit leech and unmodified Leadership

    I suppose there are two ways to look at it, the FAQ refers only to leadership tests, or it refers to any usage of unmodified leadership.

    I'll state my case again.

    The ACTUAL QUESTION part of the question is "What is your unmodified leadership?" (by the way I don't believe the question was written by GW only submitted to them) The sentence about Leadership Tests seems to only be a statement of fact and doesn't seem to have any bearing on the answer. GW doesn't use the words "leadership test" anywhere in their answer, they only describe what is a model's "unmodified leadership".

  2. #62
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    Re: Spirit leech and unmodified Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Blkc57 View Post
    GW doesn't use the words "leadership test" anywhere in their answer, they only describe what is a model's "unmodified leadership".
    Technically, this isn't true, and this is what makes the situation ambiguous.

    Rather than define a "model's" unmodified leadership, this FAQ defines "your" unmodified leadership. It doesn't specify whether this applies to a unit or a model, and if you want to go a strictly RAW route, you could feasibly make an argument that this only applies to the general, which the BRB states is "a miniature representation of you on the field."

    This FAQ would have been much more helpful if it was worded to refer to a model's unmodified leadership or a unit's unmodified leadership. My hunch is that it is supposed to apply only to units, and a models unmodified leadership is the stat given in its profile, but I'm not gonna try to claim that I know what the designers actually intended on this or any other poorly written ruling.

  3. #63
    Chapter Master AMWOOD co's Avatar
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    Re: Spirit leech and unmodified Leadership

    If I may, once again, I will demonstrate the relevance of the Characteristic test FAQ to this topic. Some will accuse me of 'making things up', but I am simply generalizing from an existing answer, so while it isn't written word for word, it can be acquired.

    The generalization I speak of is that one can acquire the following principal from said text: when a value from a unit is called for, use the best in the unit; when a value for a model is called for, use the best on the model. This general principal would apply to areas outside of tests, and we can already see an application of it in the Mindrazor spell. The debate as to whether a unit with mindrazor benefited from a hero's Ld was put to rest with the FAQ, but it set a strong precedence for GW's intent regarding such effects.

    Oh, and decker_cky, how do you interpret Blade of Realities or the Greenskins old Skull Wand, which called for a model to make a Ld test on his own unmodified Ld? I'd like to know how you incorporate the FAQ with these items.
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  4. #64
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    Re: Spirit leech and unmodified Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by AMWOOD co View Post
    The generalization I speak of is that one can acquire the following principal from said text: when a value from a unit is called for, use the best in the unit; when a value for a model is called for, use the best on the model. This general principal would apply to areas outside of tests, and we can already see an application of it in the Mindrazor spell. The debate as to whether a unit with mindrazor benefited from a hero's Ld was put to rest with the FAQ, but it set a strong precedence for GW's intent regarding such effects.
    Sure we can use a generalization. But then let's do it correctly:
    For characteristics test: Use the best in the unit; when a value for a model is called for, use the best on the model
    For leadership test: Always use the highest within the unit.
    Assuming the same can be applied more generally when asked to use characterisitics outside tests, the precedence is that for leadership use the highest value within the unit where it for other characteristics would depend on if it was the unit or model that was in question.

    However trying, as you do, to generalize characteristics test into leadeship is simply invalid since characteristics test and leadership tests differ on excatly the issue you are trying to generalize.

    And thanks for bringing up "mindrazor". The issue was not resolved with a FAQ as you claim. It was an actual errata where the text was corrected to use the written leadership value in the models profile. The fact that they choose that wording rather than "Unmodified leadership" also indicate that Unmodified Leadership is not the same as the value in the models profile.


    blkc57 got it right when he states that "What is your unmodified leadership?" is the question answered in the FAQ.

    The question was:
    When taking a Leadership test, sometimes you have to take it on your unmodified leadership. What is your unmodified leadership?

    One could also ask:
    When working out spells, sometimes you have to use your unmodified leadership. What is your unmodified leadership?

    The answer would be the same. You can't possibly expect two different answers here. Ok some can. But that makes no sense to me.
    Sometimes when working out A, you have to apply B. What is B?
    Thats the structure of the question. The answer only deals with B. That is: "Unmodified Leadership".

    Either way, weird that people insist on this applying only to tests.
    If someone wants to sniper my LD 10 Vampire Lord using lvl1 death wizards with low leadership and insist on playing it that way, I certainly wont make a big deal out of it. But in the back of my head I will be thinking "One born every minute"
    Last edited by Smogg; 12-10-2012 at 08:33.

  5. #65

    Re: Spirit leech and unmodified Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by AMWOOD co View Post
    Oh, and decker_cky, how do you interpret Blade of Realities or the Greenskins old Skull Wand, which called for a model to make a Ld test on his own unmodified Ld? I'd like to know how you incorporate the FAQ with these items.
    There is no real difference between your and your own, so those would just be unmodified leadership tests.

    I think it's worth noting that simultaneous with releasing this FAQ question, GW developed a mechanic for using what people are arguing is the unmodified leadership of a model in the mindrazor errata which uses "the Leadership Characteristic written on their profile." Not definitive, but still more useful than attempting to generalize from a FAQ question on a totally different mechanic.

  6. #66

    Re: Spirit leech and unmodified Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by jindianajonz View Post
    Technically, this isn't true, and this is what makes the situation ambiguous.

    Rather than define a "model's" unmodified leadership, this FAQ defines "your" unmodified leadership. It doesn't specify whether this applies to a unit or a model, and if you want to go a strictly RAW route, you could feasibly make an argument that this only applies to the general, which the BRB states is "a miniature representation of you on the field."

    This FAQ would have been much more helpful if it was worded to refer to a model's unmodified leadership or a unit's unmodified leadership. My hunch is that it is supposed to apply only to units, and a models unmodified leadership is the stat given in its profile, but I'm not gonna try to claim that I know what the designers actually intended on this or any other poorly written ruling.
    Out of curiosity jindianajonz, what about the FAQ makes you think it only applies to units and not any model using unmodified leadership? I'm not accusing you of being wrong, but where does your hunch come from? Your can just as easily make reference to a model's AND a unit's therefore encompassing both situations, with the word "your" unmodified leadership.

  7. #67
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    Re: Spirit leech and unmodified Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Blkc57 View Post
    Out of curiosity jindianajonz, what about the FAQ makes you think it only applies to units and not any model using unmodified leadership? I'm not accusing you of being wrong, but where does your hunch come from? Your can just as easily make reference to a model's AND a unit's therefore encompassing both situations, with the word "your" unmodified leadership.
    I just feel that having a unit's unmodified leadership equal the highest in the unit but a model's unmodified leadership equal it's own leadership stat just makes more sense. As people have pointed out, that's how Mindrazor is played, and conceptually it makes sense to me that this is how a true battle of the minds would work. I guess it's more the fact that if I were writing the game rules, that's how I'd have Spirit Leech work. But of course I'm not, so my hunch is pretty damn moot.

  8. #68
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    Re: Spirit leech and unmodified Leadership

    +1.
    It's obviously an individual model using it's leadership in the Spirit Leech roll-off.
    GW's failed to hammer out a good 'answer', but 'unmodified' Leadership should be interpreted as being the 'greatest value' derived without outside influence.
    So for a unit it's the Highest Leadership in the unit (no IP, HoldYourGround!, SiN, etcetera) and for a model it's simply the written value since (in this case) even 'another' LD-value in the unit then becomes "and outside modifyer".
    And YES this is border-line 'making stuff up', and YES (just as with the currently discussed over-run from crumble issue) you can wrap yourself in the confused rules-text to derive 'another' answer - but the bottom line for me is, and as jindianajonz also says, my opinion falls where the resolution appears as the most intuitive.
    RAW just seems to be a dead end.
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  9. #69

    Re: Spirit leech and unmodified Leadership

    Bottom Line.

    Was anyone, ANYONE, in doubt over how Spirit Leech worked before this hitty little piece of FAQ came out? No

    Does That little piece of FAQ relate to Spirit Leech? No


    Spirit Leech is a unique case and whoever did that FAQ-answer was only thinking LD-tests, and simply didnt think about this. Lets give GW some credit (at the rate these FAQs come out I'm not not sure why we should). It's rare even for them to take a crystal clear spell and turn it into an incomprehensible mush.

    It is obvious the that FAQ answer didn't consider or want this.
    It is damn silly for an "unmodified" spell effect to have one meaningless exception.

    Heck, to even make the argument people have wring every word of the FAQ, never once taking the whole FAQ into account and the applying a good deal of interpretation.'

    But heck, it's people own miniatures. Cheat if you want to
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  10. #70

    Re: Spirit leech and unmodified Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Wesser View Post
    Bottom Line.

    Does That little piece of FAQ relate to Spirit Leech? No


    Spirit Leech is a unique case and whoever did that FAQ-answer was only thinking LD-tests, and simply didnt think about this.

    It is obvious the that FAQ answer didn't consider or want this.

    Heck, to even make the argument people have wring every word of the FAQ, never once taking the whole FAQ into account and the applying a good deal of interpretation.'

    But heck, it's people own miniatures. Cheat if you want to
    Uh? Not trying to be combative here Wesser, but you seem to be imposing your own opinion as fact an awful lot there. I agree with nothing in your post, and I can't help it. You state that whoever did the FAQ answer was only thinking ld test. Really? Is that why he never mentioned the words "leadership test"?

    Wring every word of the FAQ? We are the ones Wesser trying to state that the simple statement of fact at the introduction of the question has no bearing on the actual answer that was given, since GW only seems to answer the question of "what is your unmodified leadership?'"

    Again I'm not trying to be curt with you and state things like "Cheat if you want to", but you seem to be inventing a context and placing imaginary restrictions on something GW laid out rather clearly, Unmodified leadership is the highest leadership in the unit.

    In the end I am looking forward to the day GW retracts that question from the FAQ for the simple fact that if they ever wanted to define something as important as the game mechanic Unmodified Leadership they should have done it in the Errata section proper without complicating it with extraneous words and not in some out of the way place like a question in the back. Its the same as my complaint with their definition of "Mixed Unit", that exits in separated parts in about 3 or 4 Army Book FAQ's rather in the main rule book Errata proper. Wanna know the rules for a mixed unit? Well, get ready for a treasure hunt!
    Last edited by Blkc57; 13-10-2012 at 11:41.

  11. #71
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    Re: Spirit leech and unmodified Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Blkc57 View Post
    Wring every word of the FAQ? We are the ones Wesser trying to state that the simple statement of fact at the introduction of the question has no bearing on the actual answer that was given, since GW only seems to answer the question of "what is your unmodified leadership?'"

    Again I'm not trying to be curt with you and state things like "Cheat if you want to", but you seem to be inventing a context and placing imaginary restrictions on something GW laid out rather clearly, Unmodified leadership is the highest leadership in the unit.!
    Its funny how both sides are saying exactly the same things about the other side (you also are treating your opinion as fact just as much as Wesser)

    Quote Originally Posted by Blkc57 View Post
    In the end I am looking forward to the day GW retracts that question from the FAQ for the simple fact that if they ever wanted to define something as important as the game mechanic Unmodified Leadership they should have done it in the Errata section proper without complicating it with extraneous words and not in some out of the way place like a question in the back. Its the same as my complaint with their definition of "Mixed Unit", that exits in separated parts in about 3 or 4 Army Book FAQ's rather in the main rule book Errata proper. Wanna know the rules for a mixed unit? Well, get ready for a treasure hunt!
    Thats because they work differently in every book and in every case are different. Kroxigores go in a unit differently from a slan wich is different from a screaming bell.

  12. #72

    Re: Spirit leech and unmodified Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Blkc57 View Post
    Uh? Not trying to be combative here Wesser, but you seem to be imposing your own opinion as fact an awful lot there. I agree with nothing in your post, and I can't help it. You state that whoever did the FAQ answer was only thinking ld test. Really? Is that why he never mentioned the words "leadership test"?

    Wring every word of the FAQ? We are the ones Wesser trying to state that the simple statement of fact at the introduction of the question has no bearing on the actual answer that was given, since GW only seems to answer the question of "what is your unmodified leadership?'"

    Again I'm not trying to be curt with you and state things like "Cheat if you want to", but you seem to be inventing a context and placing imaginary restrictions on something GW laid out rather clearly, Unmodified leadership is the highest leadership in the unit.

    In the end I am looking forward to the day GW retracts that question from the FAQ for the simple fact that if they ever wanted to define something as important as the game mechanic Unmodified Leadership they should have done it in the Errata section proper without complicating it with extraneous words and not in some out of the way place like a question in the back. Its the same as my complaint with their definition of "Mixed Unit", that exits in separated parts in about 3 or 4 Army Book FAQ's rather in the main rule book Errata proper. Wanna know the rules for a mixed unit? Well, get ready for a treasure hunt!
    You talk about context as if you know what it is. Yet you ignore the part of the actual FAQ question that deals with leaderships tests and only use the part of the FAQ that byou want to.

    Also Unmodified LD isnt an important mechanic. It is extremely rare.

    Finally you ignore the whole question. Noone was in any doubt how to handle spirit leech before. Only because someone pulled a piece of FAQ and applied it to a totally different and unrelated context did the question even arise.
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  13. #73
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    Re: Spirit leech and unmodified Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Smogg View Post
    blkc57 got it right when he states that "What is your unmodified leadership?" is the question answered in the FAQ.

    The question was:
    When taking a Leadership test, sometimes you have to take it on your unmodified leadership. What is your unmodified leadership?

    One could also ask:
    When working out spells, sometimes you have to use your unmodified leadership. What is your unmodified leadership?

    The answer would be the same. You can't possibly expect two different answers here. Ok some can. But that makes no sense to me.
    Sometimes when working out A, you have to apply B. What is B?
    Thats the structure of the question. The answer only deals with B. That is: "Unmodified Leadership".

    Either way, weird that people insist on this applying only to tests.
    When I go out on a date with my mother, she likes to hear me tell her that I love her. What is love?
    When I go out on a date with my girlfriend, she likes to hear me tell her that I love her. What is love?

    When I am cooking on the stove, I've been told to be careful as the stove is hot. What is hot?
    When I gaze at the stars, I've been told they are hot. What is hot?

    When I am out in the garden, I notice the weeds grow very fast. What is fast?
    When I am out in the garden, I notice the cars travel past very fast. What is fast?

    The answers are not the same. The first statement is a positioning statement so we have a context about the topic. Are we talking about the love for a mother, a lover, a child, an animal? We cannot answer the question meaningfully unless there is a context.

    In this case the positioning statement says quite clearly "When taking a Leadership test,...". The answer to the question has to be seen in the context of the positioning statement otherwise the answer is taken out of context and is misleading.
    We might also discover that we don't have a girlfiend anymore.

  14. #74

    Re: Spirit leech and unmodified Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Bitten Black Sheep View Post
    What is love?
    Baby don't hurt me.
    Don't hurt me.

    No more~

  15. #75
    Chaplain Smogg's Avatar
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    Re: Spirit leech and unmodified Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Bitten Black Sheep View Post
    When I go out on a date with my mother, she likes to hear me tell her that I love her. What is love?
    When I go out on a date with my girlfriend, she likes to hear me tell her that I love her. What is love?

    When I am cooking on the stove, I've been told to be careful as the stove is hot. What is hot?
    When I gaze at the stars, I've been told they are hot. What is hot?

    When I am out in the garden, I notice the weeds grow very fast. What is fast?
    When I am out in the garden, I notice the cars travel past very fast. What is fast?

    The answers are not the same. The first statement is a positioning statement so we have a context about the topic. Are we talking about the love for a mother, a lover, a child, an animal? We cannot answer the question meaningfully unless there is a context.

    In this case the positioning statement says quite clearly "When taking a Leadership test,...". The answer to the question has to be seen in the context of the positioning statement otherwise the answer is taken out of context and is misleading.
    We might also discover that we don't have a girlfiend anymore.
    Funny way to try prove your point, but in all of your examples you use expressions as "love", "hot" and "fast" are extremely subjective by their nature, and almost meaningless without a more specific context. Where the FAQ is seeking to provide a fixed definition for something that is not meant to be subjective in any way. "Unmodified Leadership" and is already born with a context: Within Warhammer Fantasy Battle.

    More relevant examples would be sentences of the same nature and within the context of warhammer.

    When targeting an enemy model with a shooting attack, there has to be in Line of Sight. What is Line of Sight?

    Some death magic spells cause direct damage. What is direct damage?

    After failing an armor save, you can take a ward save. What is a ward save?

    In all the the above the leading sentence is only that. But the question and the answer to follow would cover the term itself in a broader context. That is within warhammer fantasy battle.


    I think my examples are far closer the the FAQ structure than your "love" and "hot" examples.
    So yeah, even though the leading sentence mention Leadership tests, it does not limit the definition of "Unmodified Leadership" to leadership tests only.

    Don't get me wrong. I would never use the above examples to "prove" that I am right in this debate. Just to point out, that your examples makes for a very weak argument as I can demonstrate the opposite, with better and more relevant examples.
    Last edited by Smogg; 13-10-2012 at 23:32.

  16. #76

    Re: Spirit leech and unmodified Leadership

    was gonna edit to add more but hey, someone posted something before I could~

    So anyway, other than Spirit Leech, where and what asks for Unmodified Leadership exactly?
    What are the situations this FAQ refer to?
    What leadership tests are asked to be on unmodified LD?

  17. #77
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    Re: Spirit leech and unmodified Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalandros View Post
    was gonna edit to add more but hey, someone posted something before I could~

    So anyway, other than Spirit Leech, where and what asks for Unmodified Leadership exactly?
    What are the situations this FAQ refer to?
    What leadership tests are asked to be on unmodified LD?
    Steadfast or Unbreakable units making making a reform amid defeat P 55:
    "the test is taken on the unit's unmodified Leadership"

  18. #78

    Re: Spirit leech and unmodified Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Smogg View Post
    Steadfast or Unbreakable units making making a reform amid defeat P 55:
    "the test is taken on the unit's unmodified Leadership"
    Page 54 – Steadfast
    Change the first paragraph to “If a defeated unit has more
    ranks than its enemy, it takes a Break test without applying the
    difference in the combat result scores.” Change the fourth
    paragraph to “Steadfast units don’t apply the difference in
    combat result scores to Break tests.”

    Page 60 – Steadfast
    Change “[...]can use its unmodified Leadership[...]” to
    “[...]doesn’t apply the difference in combat result scores[...]”.
    Change both references to “[...] any enemy units [...]” to “[...]
    all enemy units [...]”.

  19. #79
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    Re: Spirit leech and unmodified Leadership

    Yet it doesn't actually errata p55. So page 55 still reads "unmodified".

    This wasn't a helpful example, Smogg. It just opens another can of worms, another RAW vs RAI debate.

  20. #80
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    Re: Spirit leech and unmodified Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Inquisitor View Post
    Yet it doesn't actually errata p55. So page 55 still reads "unmodified".

    This wasn't a helpful example, Smogg. It just opens another can of worms, another RAW vs RAI debate.
    Kalandros asked where Unmodified Leadership was used for leadership tests. I gave an answer.
    Last edited by Smogg; 14-10-2012 at 09:10.

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