Totally Awesome List of Daemons Counters Needed

[rcm2216]

Helppppp!
I just played an awesome list of 40K Daemons that seemed unbeatable. I had all the right tactics but came up short not do to tactics but the Daemon's stats. I was playing Grey Knights with about 40 Marines, 5 Razor Backs (2 Lascannon, 1 Heavy Bolter, 2 Ass Cannon), 2 Autocannon Dreads, 9 various Henchmen (mostly psykers), and Coteaz.

The gentleman was playing Chaos Daemons with 10x3 Plague Bearers, 10x3 Flamers, 7x3 Screamers, 2x1 HQ dudes from Tzeentch on throwing around bolts and gazes....

The problem I had was, the screamer jumped 24 inches after deepstriking and flamers shooting attacks destroy everything after shooting when deepstriking.
The army is highly fast, versatile in killing tanks and infantry, and resilent....


How should you counter this Army List of Daemons?

[CrownAxe]

Your the one playing grey knights

[Mchagen]

You're the one playing grey knights

Ironic right.. Regardless, warp quake is one of the single most annoying and broken abilities a daemon army can face. A first turn with a couple strike/interceptor squads can easily bubble wrap most your force and flamers become paper weights. Use quake to dictate where you want your opponent to land then take out the flamers before they get a chance to do any damage.

Also, syntax is typically 3x 10 plaguebearers, etc. It's easier to follow. And the flamers can only be max units of nine, unless that was just a miscount.

[Mchagen]

Double post.

[Infidel]

Well, Warp Quake for one. Spread out and then the only thing that's capable of doing much of anything is the Screamers.

Unless he's packing Fateweaver, you should be able to torrent them down with massed Psybolt stormbolter.

[rcm2216]

Yes, I am the Grey Knight Player...... The Deamons come down half the time first turn outside of warp quake zone or before it can be set off. Them being jump infantry increases their range where no one needs to be in your face first turn. The Screamers are jet bike that get a turbo boost move after deepstriking. The flamers come down about 20 inches out, then jump infantry into your lines turn 2. That is the strategy I seek every game. My counter was to shoot up the screamers first, then hope enough survives the flamers shooting turn 2. It is almost impossible to assault flamers in a good fashion because of the template overwatch.

[Kevlar]

Flamers and screamers are too good now. Its the breaks. The white dwarf update made them sick. Your only hope is that all the demon players run out and buy 30 of each at $8 to $10 a model, and they get hit hard by the nerf bat when their codex drops in a few months. Then those guys will all have to run out and buy something else.

As a Grey Knight player you should be intimately familiar with this.

[rcm2216]

@ Kevlar, Funny.............. I play Eldar and Dark Eldar as well........ It seemed to be true for Dark Eldar as well.... I heard a New Daemon Codex might be out early next year. It would suck for Daemon players if that happened right before tourny season began... say Feb 2013... How do you feel about the Chaos Dex, has it been nerfed. I think it is not overpowered, but the power players have not turned it out yet....

[gwarsh41]

Daemons are coming out in a few months? To the rumors section!

[rcm2216]

If Daemons are coming out in a few months and they look like the updated Daemon tease of August. I see a very powerful codex about to surface... fast, deadly, and almost unbreakable. I am really worrried now... LOL. IN all seriousness, this point will probaly be brought up then as well. "How to counter Daemons"

[Kevlar]

How do you feel about the Chaos Dex, has it been nerfed. I think it is not overpowered, but the power players have not turned it out yet....

I wouldn't say its been nerfed totally. Although some of the most popular units were. Some of the changes were good, some bad. Honestly I think the book is about equal in power to where the 4th edition book was. Which for chaos playes is a bit of a downer.

Nothing really great was added as has been hashed out in many other threads.

[Konovalev]

Paladins/Terminators go a long ways against daemons now that bloodletters no longer ignore their save. I don't know the AP of the shooting attacks on the new WD units, but I think a squad or 2 or troop terminators would help.

[Kelanen]

I wouldn't say its been nerfed totally. Although some of the most popular units were. Some of the changes were good, some bad. Honestly I think the book is about equal in power to where the 4th edition book was. Which for chaos playes is a bit of a downer.

Nothing really great was added as has been hashed out in many other threads.

Actually I'd say it's got worse competitively.

The average unit has definitely got better, but that's irrelevant - competitive play revolves around the top few choices. Lash was what kept CSM in the running, and lots of little tweaks upwards on the bad units in no way replace that.

For a casual gamer it almost certainly got better, and most of the bad is to do with 6th's Assaulting rules, rather than the dex per se, it just happens to be a faction that likes to be up close and personal. For competitive play it's gone down, and it wasn't in a great place to start with.

[rcm2216]

My problem was the flamers that shot a Assault 3 AP4 weapon at 18 inch range I believe, then 8 in template that auto wounds on 4 plus with no armor save (I think) and auto glance vehicles on a 4 plus. At the same time moving 12inches as jump infantry.

So the problem comes from dealing with 27 flamers in units of 9 and 21 screamers in units of 7 coming at you at the same time. What I did was turtled up in deployment, I went second. He came down with screamers 24 inches away and flamers about 20 inches away. Nothing scattered badly. Then he turbo boosted the screamers one inch from my Razorback wall, the flamer moved a few inches. I shot up the screamers badly on my turn, but on his second turn, the flamers jump into my turtle templating everything to death. I attempted to counter attack to only discover that his overwatch is the worse in the game. D3 template hits for each flamer without an armor save.............. Even the Dread went up in smoke with the auto glances on a 4 plus...........

I want to know what would you do differently in this same scenario?

[Kevlar]

Paladins/Terminators go a long ways against daemons now that bloodletters no longer ignore their save. I don't know the AP of the shooting attacks on the new WD units, but I think a squad or 2 or troop terminators would help.

Flamers would destroy the entire unit in one go with a lucky deepstrike roll.

[The_Klobb_Maniac]

I had all the right tactics but came up short not do to tactics but the Daemon's stats.

....right... I'm sure when you lose it has nothing at all to do with how you played

I was playing Grey Knights

, and you're complaining about demons stats?!

The gentleman was playing Chaos Daemons with 10x3 Plague Bearers, 10x3 Flamers, 7x3 Screamers, 2x1 HQ dudes from Tzeentch on throwing around bolts and gazes....

The problem I had was, the screamer jumped 24 inches after deepstriking and flamers shooting attacks destroy everything after shooting when deepstriking.
The army is highly fast, versatile in killing tanks and infantry, and resilent....

Ironically; tactics. I'd assume this means that you didn't end up playing perfectly.

Tactic: Use the ability to shoot at deepstrikers for free to keep your army safe.

Tactic: Deploy in transports and when you disembark from being wrecked, spread out.

Tactic: Don't shoot the screamers; your transports aren't important after he deepstrikes. Shoot the Flamers.

Tactic: Don't charge flamers <= you seriously think you played perfectly when you did that?

Tactic: Charge Screamers <= they can hit and run IIRC, but no overwatch and not good enough in combat to be a problem; unless I misunderstood the changes..

Tactic: Spread out? Flame templates => move in such a way that templates get an unfavorable number of hits. If done well he can still potentially wipe units, but he'll have to be awkwardly positioned to be shot up. Template weapons are difficult to use in general, so exploit that as best you can. Utilize any invuls you can get.



NM, that's all dumb. It's the demons stats.

EDIT: Re-reading, it seems you think Horrors are also flamers? Or something? I'm a little confused.

[DJ3]

My problem was the flamers that shot a Assault 3 AP4 weapon at 18 inch range I believe, then 8 in template that auto wounds on 4 plus with no armor save (I think) and auto glance vehicles on a 4 plus. At the same time moving 12inches as jump infantry.

So the problem comes from dealing with 27 flamers in units of 9 and 21 screamers in units of 7 coming at you at the same time. What I did was turtled up in deployment, I went second. He came down with screamers 24 inches away and flamers about 20 inches away. Nothing scattered badly. Then he turbo boosted the screamers one inch from my Razorback wall, the flamer moved a few inches. I shot up the screamers badly on my turn, but on his second turn, the flamers jump into my turtle templating everything to death. I attempted to counter attack to only discover that his overwatch is the worse in the game. D3 template hits for each flamer without an armor save.............. Even the Dread went up in smoke with the auto glances on a 4 plus...........

I want to know what would you do differently in this same scenario?

You're overstating things to make the situation sound more drastic than it is. If you come at this from the viewpoint of I DID EVERYTHING RIGHT AND STILL LOST, you're not going to learn anything. Because you did play wrong.

At the moment, it sounds more like you were expecting everyone to go "lol daemons too op, 100% unbeatable, don't even try" just to make you feel better about what happened, rather than actually asking for advice.

Tactic: Charge Screamers <= they can hit and run IIRC, but no overwatch and not good enough in combat to be a problem; unless I misunderstood the changes..

Screamers don't have Hit and Run, but are rather dangerous in combat now.

EDIT: Re-reading, it seems you think Horrors are also flamers? Or something? I'm a little confused.

Flamers also have Warpfire, the Horrors' shooting attack. And are BS4. It's obviously not their primary form of attack, but it helps sometimes.

[rcm2216]

Well, Yeah, I am a perfectionist and I hate being wrong...

Meaning I did all things a typical player would have done, accept know a few things that caught me by surprise. Like the flamers being jump infantry now, which caused me to move up expecting them to move only six inches and shoot. You should have seen me when the guy strectched the ruler 12 inches. I said, "what are you doing." He said moving my jump infantry. I responded, 'they are not jump infantry if I recall." He said, "the Daemon WD update made them jump infantry now."

[d6juggernaut]

Since when are you allowed to take 27 flamers? Sounds like somebody cheated

[rcm2216]

WOW, I did not know I came off as such, thanks for the critiques and observations of my mindset. You guys can smell hidden arrogance a mile away LOL