Cultists or Allied Guardsmen?

[jason_sation]

I'd like to start up an Iron Warriors list similar to Storm of Iron with humans helping out the Iron Warriors. Just curious what your thoughts are on using Cultists vs. (traitor) Guardsmen in a list that would heavily rely on them more than the Chaos Space Marines. I already use the IG Codex. I'd also like to limit the discussion to JUST Guardsmen (not vets), and Heavy Weapons teams vs. Cultist units.

Pros of Using Cultists
-Don't need to buy an HQ
-Can be armed with Pistols and weapon or Autogun
-Can have a Dark Apostle
-Don't need to buy an IG HQ to use

Pros of Using Guardsmen
-better heavy weapons/special weapons
-models are more readily available (Cultists only come in Dark Vengeance Box or eBay)
-better stats

Thanks!

[MarshalFaust]

I'm contemplating the very same thing. I'm also not sure where I fall either. One benefit of using guard allies is that I can bring an ordnance battery or a manticore and I don't have to use one of my valuable chaos marine HQs to babysit a blob squad of cultists.

[jason_sation]

I had thought of that too. I'd love to run Iron Warriors with Allied Basilisks, but then that makes the choice more obvious. One other thing about the Guardsmen is the ability to decide on using blobs or smaller units at the start of the game AND Orders!

[MarshalFaust]

Or if you really just want the basilisk just take a couple vet squads or penal legionnaires and a commisar lord. Then load up on artillery.

[Tarkon]

Depends on which Legion or theme you're using I think. I use allied (Traitor) Imperial Guard in my Iron Warriors army, but Cultists in my Word Bearers army.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

Eh, I wouldn't use Cultists if I have the option of using allied Guard. Guard are better - no question. Cultists are for things like when you have Daemon allies, or just want 20 meatshields to sit on an objective and don't want to spend any more points.

[Graystoak]

Sorry to throw another option into the mix but If you want the best of both worlds you should use the 'Renegades & Heretics' list from FW.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Download...F/i/IA5_RH.pdf

They also counts as Battle Brothers for Chaos Marines which will allow you to use your characters to buff them. The only problem is not all opponents are happy with FW rules. But they follow the same format as IG so you can use the same models/squads in either case.

[Enigma6]

I'm with N-Chieftain.

If you want deamon allies, go cultists.

If you just want the cheap bodies and good guns, go IG.

As your doing iron warriors, artillery suits their theme. They also don't use deamons much in the fluff (except engines) and would generally have better equipped/trained human meat shields.

[Lord Squidar]

Sorry where is the part about not needing an HQ if you use the cultists? Its the one thing that is stopping me from using cultists since I dont want a single marine in my chaos force, only daemons and crazies.

[Harwammer]

Depends on how keen you are on counts as. Dark apostle would do a good job as a 'counts as' elevated cult leader.

Alternatively Daemon Prince fits your spec.

[Caitsidhe]

I prefer, by far, Traitor Guard and my Cultist Models are coming along very nicely for Chaos stylized IG. I like options for competitive all-comers lists and the IG provides me access to nice large units behind an Aegis backed up by a Sabre Defense systems and a Kommisar mounting my Quad Gun. I get the effective killing power of Obliterators with Interceptor and Skyfire to boot. Being scoring is just that much more icing.

[The_Klobb_Maniac]

to be fair, without order support IG are ever-so-slightly worse guns.

But... Tactics wise? Depends if you need allies from Daemons or if the overhead costs of the squads are too much. Sometimes you don't want to shell out 2 more KPs in Command Squads ya know?

[Lord Squidar]

holy flaming batman...just read up on the new daemon prince, kicks the rear end of the daemon codex one. right, new allied attachment, tzeentch daemon prince with wings, power armour and mastery level 3 plus two cultist squads from dark vengeance

[Caitsidhe]

holy flaming batman...just read up on the new daemon prince, kicks the rear end of the daemon codex one. right, new allied attachment, tzeentch daemon prince with wings, power armour and mastery level 3 plus two cultist squads from dark vengeance

No, he doesn't. You will find that out soon enough.

[Kelanen]

holy flaming batman...just read up on the new daemon prince, kicks the rear end of the daemon codex one. right, new allied attachment, tzeentch daemon prince with wings, power armour and mastery level 3 plus two cultist squads from dark vengeance

No he doesn't - just work out his cost.

CSM DP's are all but unplayable competitively.

[owen matthew]

Why? Help enlighten instead of being so cryptic, please.

[owen matthew]

The book has been out a week, with the leak for a bit morethan two, how can you know what the competative meta is yet? Anyone can try and figure out what looks good right off the bat, but it takes time for the one or twoserious builds to emerge.

[Kelanen]

Because we've been playing with these units with very similar stats for 15+ years.

Daemon Princes were previously only really competitively viable with Lash. Lash no longer exists, and DP's with options have doubled in price. You don't need to know anything about the meta to get a take on them, it's a simple economy of points efficiency.

It's also what GW traditionally does to sell models - makes the old star players crap, so you buy new ones. Ask things like Carnifexes and Falcons how it felt to go from must have to can't use... DP's have been upcosted to push the Lords and Sorcerers which no-one used before. Oblits have got less necessary and Defilers points bumped to where they are now an awful buy - but it just so happens we have these nice shiny Maulerfiends, and Forgefiends in that slot... and so on.

Working out exact builds and tactic, yes takes playtesting and time. Working out which units are in contention, and which have just bomed doesn't - it just needs some experience and a look at the points values and stats...

[The_Klobb_Maniac]

@Kel
I think that's only half-right. One could've announced how permanently bad the Hive Tyrant was; but he's a monster on the table now. He's a go-to at the moment for my argument here as he was increased in points and stats similarly to the DP was; Nearly double the price. The ability to fly mitigates a lot of damage that can even touch a DP and may well be enough IMO that some see play successfully. The fact that they take less wounds in combat and dish out more pain means they may well not only *make it* to combat, but successfully gank multiple squads.

Stats are one thing, but if you don't include flying the stats are deceiving. Night Scythes look like paper short-ranged Rifledreads stat-wise, but flying makes them ridiculous. Similarly, I'm thinking that since dreadknights seem to find a home and also reach lofty 200 point levels, we may well see decent use of DPs.

2 MCs with similar costs and speed see play; I'd say that's a better argument than "I've looked at the points cost and stats."

[owen matthew]

I have been playing, very succesfuly, nearly as long. Its too early to count anything out yet, knowing how fast the meta swings. The dp is not as clear cut a case as the carnifex, either, though I am not making a case for him yet.

The book is fairly different, so is the edition. 15 yeadrs of knowing a statline does not mean you see the future. Sometimes the meta can get surprising, its important to keep an open mind.

Plus, a good player most often trumps a good list, anyway.