Viability of Horus Heresy Lists against normal

[Wyrmwood]

I'd be more than happy to. I am a Chaos Space Marine player, so it's not even far fetched from a lore perspective.

[SideshowLucifer]

The problem is that too many people focus on the tournament scenes like Feast of Blades and 'Ard Boys and call them the "real" game, when the real game is what happens without a TO.

I can agree with this. Tourney play pretty much dictates the rules allowed in friendly games here as friendly games are just a nice way of saying practicing for a tourney.

[Hendarion]

Having recently picked up Betrayal, I can't see any problem, at all, with playing a game against a 30k army using a 40k army. I can't think of anything in the book that is any more abusive than anything in any of the existing codices.

That said, would you be willing to play against a Horus Heresy list with your normal list in a tournament or a pick-up game, or at all?

I find Space Marines on Jetbikes offensive. I guess I would play with friends as a trial, but I'm really not a big fan of the Jetbike thing, no matter how long they had been around, (Rogue Trader) because if that's the argument, we should also see Space Marines with Shuriken Catapults, they also existed in Rogue Trader. Both is silly in my eyes, personal distaste.

[Vaktathi]

I find Space Marines on Jetbikes offensive. I guess I would play with friends as a trial, but I'm really not a big fan of the Jetbike thing, no matter how long they had been around, (Rogue Trader) because if that's the argument, we should also see Space Marines with Shuriken Catapults, they also existed in Rogue Trader. Both is silly in my eyes, personal distaste.

I'm not seeing the issue, they're supposed to portray the best equipped forces of a galaxy spanning empire at the height of its power 10,000 years before the current setting.

Now, one might make a case that they're a bit cheap for what they do, but aside from that, for the setting they are supposed to portray, I don't see it as a huge issue.

[TK-421]

Haven't had a chance to check out the new FW HH book but it can't be any more overpowered than Grey Knights, Space Wolves etc. so I can't see a valid reason for anyone not playing against it

[stereynolds]

Played against World Eaters the other night with Eldar (and let him take Angron to see how it went). At the end of the game it looked really bad for me but I had been winning up til turn 4. Angron only took a single wound all game but other than that I managed to lock him in combat for over 3 turns with invulnerable saved squads (first Harlies then allied Wyches). No real issue at all regarding the power level.

[HereticHammer01]

What Charistoph said nails it really.

I think without the superheavies or primarchs its probably fine.

[superdupermatt]

I played a 1k points game on Thursday, my HH v my friends Vanilla Marines, he didn't get any where close to me. Having 20 Marines rapid firing 'Fury of the Legion' and then 10 krak missiles is not going to end well for a regular 10 man tactical squad.

[Endobai]

I played a 1k points game on Thursday, my HH v my friends Vanilla Marines, he didn't get any where close to me. Having 20 Marines rapid firing 'Fury of the Legion' and then 10 krak missiles is not going to end well for a regular 10 man tactical squad.

10 Kraks? From two squads I am assuming?

If not that would make an extremely tempting target for anything in the game.

[Maidel]

I find Space Marines on Jetbikes offensive. I guess I would play with friends as a trial, but I'm really not a big fan of the Jetbike thing, no matter how long they had been around, (Rogue Trader) because if that's the argument, we should also see Space Marines with Shuriken Catapults, they also existed in Rogue Trader. Both is silly in my eyes, personal distaste.

I'm really confused about that? Do you have issues with land speeders? Because they are simply a two man jet bike...

[nedius]

I don't think it's a problem, personally.

To be honest, some of the codexes make sense anyway - orks, demons, eldar and dark eldar all fit straight into the universe, and unless FW release a book dedicated to other races, are the only current way of representing them.

Also, other codexes allow you to represent other races mentioned in the books. The Interex could be represented by Tau, the Auretian Tecknocracy could be Sisters (normal humans in power armour), the Megaracnids would be 'nids.

[Gazak Blacktoof]

I think players should keep 30K armies distinct from 40K armies. 30K is essentially a campaign setting with special rules and new units similar to the war of the beard dwarf and elf forces for warhammer.

I wouldn't want to play against a 30K army with my necrons or eldar. With the exception of jetbikes the models can be used as a 40K army anway so there's no reason that players should pit 30K against 40K anyway.

[Maidel]

I wouldn't want to play against a 30K army with my necrons or eldar. With the exception of jetbikes the models can be used as a 40K army anway so there's no reason that players should pit 30K against 40K anyway.

Why? Of all the armies in 40k, those are the two most likely to fit the background and time setting. I might have understood if you said tau...

I think there's a perfectly good reason why people would want to, the number of 30k armies is likely o be tiny and thus getting game very difficult.

[superdupermatt]

@endobai heavy support squads can be upgraded to 10 men and everyone must take the same heavy weapon.

[Leftenant Gashrog]

Having 20 Marines rapid firing 'Fury of the Legion' and then 10 krak missiles is not going to end well for a regular 10 man tactical squad.

Having 500+ points of anything isn't going to end well for a 200~ish point Tactical squad, what was the rest of his army doing?

[GrogDaTyrant]

In my personal viewpoint, the HH books are built with their own style, own point-system, and their own ideals of 'balance' (not to say 40k actually exhibits that... ). Overall, I wouldn't play a 40k army vs a 30k one. Nor would I collect a 30k army... because I personally have no interest in a marine fanservice FW expansion. Bluntly put, there's nothing for me, or anything of interest to me, in the HH books.

[brain_dead_1st]

at 1999pts the Horus lists are balanced like an updated Eldar army.
if you are lucky and bring the right tools you win, if you dont bring hte right tools ....

[Maidel]

In my personal viewpoint, the HH books are built with their own style, own point-system, and their own ideals of 'balance' .

I keep asking this sort of question hoping someone will answer.

What on earth gives you that impression?? They have a different style to other marine armies, but then again so does a spacewolf to vanilla marines list - but where are you getting this concept of a different points system and a different ideal of balance?

Everyone who seems against these lists seems to not have actually read them.

[Vaktathi]

I keep asking this sort of question hoping someone will answer.

What on earth gives you that impression?? They have a different style to other marine armies, but then again so does a spacewolf to vanilla marines list - but where are you getting this concept of a different points system and a different ideal of balance?

Everyone who seems against these lists seems to not have actually read them.

Because in reading the book and the scenario's they're designing the missions to be used for tend towards games at larger than normal points levels and have an entirely different allies table, and the units scale much, much differently. Most codex armies can min/max a lot better and are more functional at lower model counts typically and get less and less bang for their buck the larger they get usually, whereas the HH units are hilariously expensive to start of with and once expanded to full size start to become rather cheap for what they do and get more and more capable.

Nobody is saying they can't be used against 40k armies, only that it's a bit wonky.

[Maidel]

Because in reading the book and the scenario's they're designing the missions to be used for tend towards games at larger than normal points levels and have an entirely different allies table, and the units scale much, much differently. Most codex armies can min/max a lot better and are more functional at lower model counts typically and get less and less bang for their buck the larger they get usually, whereas the HH units are hilariously expensive to start of with and once expanded to full size start to become rather cheap for what they do and get more and more capable.

Nobody is saying they can't be used against 40k armies, only that it's a bit wonky.

Well some people are saying that they cant...

But at least you put forward a coherent argument, which is far more than anyone else is doing.

I would disagree with your entire premise tho. You are saying that the squads start off expensive and then get lots cheaper as they get bigger.

Current marine codex:

5 marines (including sergant) average x points with no extra gear

Add 5 marines - each is x-2 points (so 2 points cheaper per marine) AND if you take 10 marines then you get a free flamer and free missile launcher.

How is that not getting a lot cheaper as things go on?


Right, lets compare that to the HH book

First 10 marines (including sergant) are y

Next 10 marines are y-5

Ok - so that sounds like you getting them massively cheap, but compare that to the normal marine codex and you are getting nothing for free AND as soon as you start adding more marines in then you can no longer put them in a transport, so they immediately become a foot slogging unit (or you can buy them a transport that costs almost more the points of the entire 20 man unit!). Also its just 1 troop choice, it cant be split, it can only claim 1 objective.

I dont see it being anything other than a different way of choosing an army. Some armies pay for units as a unit + a cost for additional models (marines) and some armies pay for them on an individual per model unit from the first one (dark eldar). This is just another way of purchasing units.