They would be way too powerful.
They would be a little too powerful.
They would be just right.
They would still be a little underpowered.
They would still be drastically underpowered.
I'd like to see soemthing like this:
Elf Bows
These weapons can be used with either of the two profiles below. All models in the unit armed with Elf Bows must use the same profile.
Normal shot: Range 30", Strength 3, Special rules: Volley Fire
Power-shot: Range 30", Strength 4, Special rules: Move or Fire, Slow to Fire
This means the unit either gets to move and shoot, or it can remain stationary and either make a Volley Fire attack or shoot with improved Strength.
Will Orc for food!
That is an adjustment I would agree with. Unfortunately this is all just mental ******y, since GW is focused on other armies now. And, contrary to popular opinion, people are winning games with WE. Hell, TK are much worse off and they just got a book so they are stuck with the suck for another decade, in all likelyhood.
And to whoever said WE do not belong in CC, you do understand that over 3/4 of the book is composed of dedicated CC units, right? Forest Spirits and Eternal Guard getting a couple minor tweaks would go a long way to helping the book without tuning into another annoying run and gun list that folds the moment the Storm Banner or Pha's Protection gets busted out.
I could not disagree more. TK have access to great magic (lore of Nehekhara is good, the Casket is great and S8 Banishment wins games all by itself), decent shooting and Necroknights which can make for some nice synergy- they are by no means a weak army, they are maybe just lacking in options a bit which will only have been helped by the new FAQ.Originally Posted by Phazael
"4 hours 27 minutes - Time it took between the ETC draft being posted and @tmarichards to ask about his free bow"
Tom " Where's my bow?" Richards
My gaming blog: http://tmarichards.blogspot.co.uk/
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So far 43 people out of 125 think all Wood Elves having Strength 4 bows AT SHORT RANGE would be overpowered!
I have to question whether these people realise that Glade Guard already have S4 bows at short range. Would giving characters, Glade Riders, Scouts, Warhawk Riders and Waywatchers S4 bows at short range really be overpowered? NO it wouldn't, in fact it might give them a chance to do something all game. lets face it all the units are already overpriced, so why not give them an ability worth paying that price for...
What's next? banning crossbows? removing armour piercing from handguns?
Idiots...
You know what, caution IS required with wood elves.
Frankly this in one of the nightmare armies to balance without losing their character and flavour. The "biting point" between grossly over or underpowered is very sharp indeed and it wouldn't take much to turn WE into an army that's greatest strength is how short the amount of time it is before your opponent wants to punch you in the face.
Core scouts with str4 shots at half range with the ability to march 10 inches, free reform and fire without penalty (whilst being -1 to BS based shooting themselves) could well turn out to be more powerful then you imagine...
Compared to Core scouts with S3 shots at short range with the ability to march 10 inches, free reform and fire without penalty (whilst being -1 to BS based shooting themselves)? a unit that i have never actually seen used by a woodelf player this edition?
Plus they cost 17 points each.....
Could be, but currently wouldn't be.
Given they're 0-1 per glade guard unit and cost 17pts/model.
Same sort of deal with waywatchers.
They're rare and cost 24pts/model...which for a st3 shot which gets killing blow only at short range they're hellishly expensive, being st4 would go a very long way to making people bother taking them.
Last edited by theunwantedbeing; 24-10-2012 at 17:15.
Plan B kill it with fire
Meat is Murder tasty, tasty murder
Yes, that is what I am saying. St4 shots are a massive difference to St3. Being able to get 10 inches out away from your opponent whilst getting out of charge arcs and pumping out highly accurate st4 shots in core is something that requires more thought then you are giving it and nobody is an "idiot" for considering this.
Of course, some may say you may be an idiot if you haven't considered this.... Not me though(JiC this could misinterpreted I am not calling you an idiot slyly... I am... erm slyly chiding the guy discounting others as idiots)
Last edited by BooMeRLiNSKi; 24-10-2012 at 17:21.
This is the main factor that mitigates it IMHO and greatly lessens the worry (per GG unit, not cost).
In the case of waywatchers I think the GG bows is a no-brainer yes. As you say, they are rare and 24 points a model.Same sort of deal with waywatchers.
They're rare and cost 24pts/model...which for a st3 shot which gets killing blow only at short range they're hellishly expensive, being st4 would go a very long way to making people bother taking them.
Sorry, i wasnt trying to insult you with my comment, i have considered them myself.Yes, that is what I am saying. St4 shots are a massive difference to St3. Being able to get 10 inches out away from your opponent whilst getting out of charge arcs and pumping out highly accurate st4 shots in core is something that requires more thought then you are giving it and nobody is an "idiot" for considering this.
Of course, some may say you may be an idiot if you haven't considered this.... Not me though
I play woodelves and currently the extra 5 points you pay over glade guard for the scouts is just not worth the extra movement. I dont think making them Strength 4 would turn them from useless to overpowered in one go, i think it would make them usable.
See edit above to clarify I wasn't having a pop at you BTW.
Yep, I have wood elves on the build (back into hobby 6 months ago after long, long break) and I have a lot of worries for them ranging from lack of power to the fact that people want to take the fairy-fae aspect out of them and replace it with some cacky pagan-esque, blair witch project, beastmen-lite iconography.
I want sprite darter fae dragon type things dammit! Down with great eagles! Those is for high elves.
I'm more in to the lorwyn/morningtide/shadowmoor style of evles and fae.
I would not say scout-skirmish glade guard getting glade bows would be too strong, because of their excessively high cost. If anything it'd make them more or less worth the points, but right now 17 points is so silly for what they do, giving them glade bows would hardly make them too powerful for their cost. They'd be quite useful and more or less worth paying the points for, but they still wouldn't be a bargain or anything. We're talking about a very small unit of squishy unarmoured t3 models firing a handful of bows.
Last edited by The bearded one; 24-10-2012 at 17:55.
Sometimes a post is so rotten I have to respond like dr.Cox-- My Dwarven painting log -- My Lizardmen painting log -- My Scurrying Skaven painting log -- My nurgle beastmen painting log --My Tau cadre painting log -- My knights of the white wolf -- My Ork painting log
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Just gives us a new army book already
Thing is, the game already has mechanics to show extreme skill with ranged weapons. Isn't that exactly what killing blow on waywatchers is meant to represent? Putting an arrow through an eyepiece? Failing that armour piercing, re-roll to wound or multi-shot or just plain high ballistic skill to represent their skill at ballistics?
I don't find the whole S4 at short range thing at all fluffy. I think there's plenty of ways their shooting can be made appropriately effective without arbitrarily giving their bows a strength boost.
... and then I won.
The power of Longbows was pretty much the same as crossbows for a long period....what is wrong with S4?
Then make all longbows S4 (at short range or all the time) if that's appropriate. Just giving a strength boost to wood elf bows to make them stronger in shooting seems lazy design.
... and then I won.
The form might not be entirely appropriate, but it fits the function. You're being pincushioned by wood elf archery, even more so if you were to manage to close the final yards and get to grips with them. Due to their long range you'd be fired upon all game anyway, but being closer is now even more dangerous.
Sometimes a post is so rotten I have to respond like dr.Cox-- My Dwarven painting log -- My Lizardmen painting log -- My Scurrying Skaven painting log -- My nurgle beastmen painting log --My Tau cadre painting log -- My knights of the white wolf -- My Ork painting log
---> Newest: 13-5-2013; Lizardmen, tournament pictures, Won best painted army! ---> New: 7-4-2013; The friendly riptide saves a firewarrior
It doesn't necessarily have to represent the brute force of slender elves pulling back powerful bows at S4, it could quite easily reflect high quality craftmanship and superior technology (which after all the Wood Elves are supposed to possess in the ranged department). Even more so at short range. I would agree that there could be a more subtle way of representing the mastery of the bow but I have little problem with increased strength, more efficient technology can be more powerful in all walks of life after all.
Awake O Dead, for there can be no rest for ye beneath the earth. Let the splintered bones burrow from the grave pall. Let cold fingers grip time-worn blades, and unseeing eyes survey the fields of slaughter. For your time has come once more. And the dead shall walk.
As a Wood Elf player i have to say that i don't like the idea of Wood Elves getting S4 at short range. I don't think it would make them overpowered atleast not with the current armybook. But i think it doesn't fit the fluff. I think giving Wood Elves armorpiercing as a general shooting rule is for a new armybook a better option then handing out Gladeguard bows for everyone. Better let Gladeguards keep there bow. And give Scouts and Glade Riders something else that makes them worth taking. Waywatchers are good in my opinion just too expensive.
I thought much the same, the crossbow was just easier to use. Really it should have much shorter range too.
I've played wood elves since 2nd, and I've had some luck with them in 8th, but shooting has rarely had much impact on my games, loads of hits, but s3 doesn't fair well at wounding, and there are plenty of armour saves.
The wood elves...
20 shots at long range vs. humans with light armour and shield. 10 hit, 5 wound, 2 1/2 are saved leaving 2 and 1/2 casualties
20 shots at long range vs. dwarfs with heavy and shield. 10 hits, 3 and 1/3 wounds, half saved leaving 1 and 2/3 casualties
Now the dwarfs...
20 shots at long range vs. humans with light armour and shield. 6 2/3 hit, 4 and bit wound, less than one is saved leaving 3-4 casualties
20 shots at long range vs. unarmoured wood elves 6 and 2/3 hit, 4 and bit wound and 4 casualties
And the humans...
20 shots at long range vs. dwarfs with heavy and shield, 6 and a bit hits, 2 wounds, 1 saved leaving 1 casualty
20 shots at long range vs. unarmoured wood elves, 6 and a bit hits, 3 and bit wounds and same casualties.
If my quick maths isn't too messed up, this puts rank and file wood elves at the bottom of the list of troops that should be shooting, with dwarfs as much more effective archers.
Granted this takes no account of manoeuvrability and other values the troops have, but it'd be nice if wood elves were top of a straight shoot out list.
Glade guard bows for everyone would help (although not in my example above). I'd quite like an option for more shots, maybe a multiple shot option, but that'd be encroaching on dark elf territory, a reduction in points would help up the numbers? Or how about a wider option for killing blow shots, but at say a -2 to hit penalty (I like this as it'd be nice to give armoured troops something to fear from wood elves)? At the moment if you look at wood elf, human or dwarf bow units the elves don't seem to have an advantage (and given it's supposed to be their strength that doesn't seem right) and i'd certainly like to use more archers in my wood elf lists
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